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Very few people have had the kind of impact on my career that Jason Barrett has. He taught me a lot about programming, evaluating talent and more. But I don’t know that I even get to the point that JB knows my name if it weren’t for Mike Hartel.

Before he stepped into his current role as Alpha Media’s Chief Revenue Officer, he oversaw the company’s Columbia, SC cluster. Years before that, he was the General Manager of 96 Rock in Raleigh, NC and hired me to be his morning guy.

When he got to South Carolina, Hartel had a sports property (RIP ESPN Columbia 1230) that he wanted to give some kind of local identity. Knowing that as much as I love 90s rock music, I always loved SEC football more, he gave me the chance to make the most significant pivot of my career.

These days, both of us are thinking on a grander scale. I’m writing about what I see and hear on a national level, while Mike is overseeing the revenue strategy for all of Alpha’s 45 markets. That’s why it was the right time for this conversation.

In the latest interview for our Meet the Leaders series, presented by Point-to-Point Marketing, Mike and I talk about the evolution of the business of radio. What do agencies want now? Can clusters function as their own ad agency? What do buyers think of AI? 

Demetri Ravanos: What has been the evolution of radio’s relationship with ad agencies? How much of what they used to provide is now being done in-house? 

Mike Hartel: That’s a really good question. I hate to say this, but in a lot of ways it’s completely different than when I started in the business, and in a lot of ways it hasn’t changed at all.

What I mean by that is a lot of the relationships are still pretty similar, in that those accounts really didn’t want us for any of the other services that we could handle. Some of the smaller ones did, but the larger ones have all of the services and capabilities in-house. They’d actually get offended when we bring that up. The smaller ones that act almost more like local direct accounts and don’t have deep staffs, we can really help them with a lot with our capabilities.

You’re right, I think, in the intent of the question. In many ways, if not in reality, the way we’re set up, it is as a full blown agency. Creative audio, video, every digital tool and tactic under the sun, reporting – I mean, there’s nothing we can’t do. So you’re absolutely right. From that perspective, we are for all intents and purposes, an agency. 

The relationship is still account by account though. Some need us for all those capabilities and others want us just for the scale and reach of radio and all the benefits from that perspective. I mean it sounds silly to say out loud, but that’s what I mean when I say it’s very different but in a lot of ways still very similar. 

DR: Does your ability to serve the smaller agencies that need the full depth of Alpha’s capabilities vary from market to market? We’ve both worked in places where everyone has multiple jobs and in places where multiple people have an assistant. In those smaller markets Alpha serves, are the clients at the mercy of what you have available in the market, or is that where you can tap into resources in other buildings across the country?

MH: I think it varies market to market. Obviously, in our bigger markets, there’s not as many of those boutique agencies that can really use our help. You do see us doing that more in those mid-sized markets and certainly the smaller ones. And yeah, there are those where they can’t afford to just step up completely again to fulfill every digital capability and tactic required. So, we have a full-blown fulfillment team, CS team, all of that. 

We place all that business directly, so for that boutique agency, it works out well, because they don’t have to step up like they normally would. They can come to us and we can handle all of that stuff for them.

DR: Think about now, but also, I want you to think back to your days of leading individual markets. When you talk to agencies, what do they tell you about their hold ups to doing business with radio in a world with so much digital competition? It’s not just audio, right? This business is competing with every website and streamer for ad dollars. So, how do the ones that say the internet is more important than local radio justify it?

MH: You know, D, this to me is the topic of the day. I’ve had several of these discussions this week. I actually saw it on Inside Radio again this morning, 31% of people’s time is spent with audio. That’s including digital audio. Only 8.8% of the advertising budgets are dedicated to audio media. It’s absolutely insane. 

As an industry, we have this massive perception problem that we really have to tackle as a group collectively. You know, Alpha’s not going to be able to get it done on our own, even the largest of these companies can’t get it done on their own. It’s got to be collective. But we’ve really got to push back because it’s just hurting our ability to grow. 

We all have all these digital capabilities, which was supposed to be, you know, a significant part of the growth strategy. Now, it is starting to play this role that was never intended, which is for it to offset radio’s declines. That’s not good for any of us. So, we got to hit that perception problem head on and really get to the root of it.

We spoke with one big agency and they were pretty frank with us. It’s like, “Wait a minute! We’re the largest reach medium. We’re more efficient than just about every other medium, so you’re reaching more people for less money. Why is this not a prominent part of your plans?”

The answer was a shock. It was. “Well, you know, a lot of my clients, they want all cutting edge, and they want us to be thinking forward. We’re a little afraid that if we bring up radio, they’re going to think we’re not cutting edge and we’re too old fashioned and we don’t get it.”

That response was from a sizable ad agency that will remain nameless. So, that’s what we’ve got to deal with and reposition our industry, too, so it’s not deemed as this old thing. It’s the most powerful medium out there. Now, we’ve never been in a better position as a medium. The only problem is we are the only ones who know it. 

DR: Is the best way to combat that going to the agencies or is it to go to the general public to reframe the way they think about radio? You mentioned those agencies say their clients want to be cutting edge. I feel like the story of “radio is dying” has been a trickle up kind of thing rather than the advertisers being the ones making that declaration.  

MH: Yeah, another great question. It is all of the above, because you’re absolutely right, it’s not just the big Madison Avenue and international ad agencies. It’s the local ones as well. They are feeling the same thing. 

A few weeks ago, I had a beer with an old friend, and I could have strangled him. He was kind of asking me questions about this stuff out of concern about me, my future, and my career. It was all predicated on the fact that he listens to podcasts and he’s just like “everybody does that.”

It’s that misperception you’re getting at ground up, from an individual. But we’ll see that at agencies as well, that same perception. “Well, nobody’s listening to radio anymore. That’s old news. Everybody’s listening to podcasts and Spotify and all that.”

They don’t see the numbers we do, so we have to attack it head on, and the RAB is actually taking some steps in this direction, which is good. It’s not happening fast enough, in my opinion. We’ve got to get going, but they’re trying to address it from more of a global and national perspective. 

We have to reposition ourselves to the local community too. Not just the advertisers, but everybody, because you’re right, their influenced by those around them – their friends and their family. If friends and family have this misperception, then a business owner, a decision maker is going to have that same misperception. That’s where we’ve got to get better. 

This is probably a topic for a completely different conversation and it’s probably an unpopular opinion, but part of it, I think, is self-inflicted. We’ve lost a lot of stars from the medium and we haven’t done a good job replacing them. Because of that, it’s harder for the local rep to go in and talk to a business. It’s just so much harder today, aside from the virtual nature of the business relationship today versus five years ago, but when you had more stars that you were representing and you went and said, “I’m with this station” and they were like, “Wow, I love that guy,” whoever it might be.

You know what’s driving me nuts? You’ll get this. I see Mad Dog Russo on television. It drives me crazy that we let a guy like that, a Radio Hall-of-Famer, we let him get away. And now he’s on ESPN and SiriusXM. What are we doing? 

DR: So, it’s interesting you bring up the star point because this is something I’ve thought about a lot since I made the transition over to sports. I think that radio, throughout its history, being so associated by the masses with music more than talk has sort of driven this or maybe kicked this narrative into overdrive because there are so many options for getting music now. 

I firmly believe the future of radio is all in the talk formats, but it is not going to work the way it should. If you are not investing in keeping whoever the next Mad Dog is. 

MH: One hundred percent. You’re right, and it’s been like this for a while. You can get music anywhere. Now, look, radio still does have the advantage of the ease of access and the free nature of it, right? But what’s missing is what you said. When you jump in the car, you kind of put it on out of habit, right? But what you’re not doing as much as you used to as a listener is “Man, let me see what Mad Dog said about this!”

If you’re a local seller, to get back to that example, and you go into a business and say, “hey, you know, I represent Mike and Mike and ESPN,” that was celebrity. It’s name recognition, it’s credibility. 

I think the music formats can do that as well, particularly with the drive time shows, but the thing is where are the new stars coming from? In morning drive and afternoon drive, especially with top 40 and rock, the stars are the same people that have been there 25 years. We’ve got to replenish.

Maybe I’m getting off topic and maybe it seems out of my lane as the revenue guy, but like I said, it does relate back to that misperception. If we had those stars, as a medium, radio would be in a very different place than what it is today. That’s something that’s within our control, but we can’t let too much more time slip before we get back on track with that. 

DR: I think this is where we have to get uncomfortable, and I have to hold your feet to the fire a bit. Because you’re right. We have to replenish and develop new talent, but Alpha is now giving airtime to AI. Couldn’t that time be used to build people that show promise into the future stars the medium needs?

MH: Well, it is. However, the goal of the AI is really supplementing. Obviously, the story that got all the notoriety was the Live 95.5, right? In that scenario, the jock, Ashley, actually was moving. I believe she was getting married. I can’t remember the exact story.

The idea was like, “Well, wait a minute. What if we just kind of clone your voice and create a hybrid of your personality?” So rather than just blow out the midday person, we had a unique opportunity. We really haven’t done that in any other circumstances. 

If there’s a strategy, it’s more, “can we do something with AI in place of an overnight shift that’s kind of swept?” It’s more incremental to the lineup as opposed to replacing the lineup. 

DR: Okay, but if I am being honest with you, it’s kind of hard not to think where things stand now is not a destination. It’s just the beginning. 

MH: I hope, and don’t think, that’ll be the case, because I do think as an industry, everything I was just saying before, we understand that we need somebody that’s going to be in the moment, incredibly topical, visible, all those things. 

Now, the difference is you’re not going to have eight people on staff filling some roles in the way it used to be. You might have two or three. That would be the big difference. So, I still don’t think it’ll be a scenario if we just fast forward, let’s say, 30 years from now where the staff will be dominated by AI versions of people, at least in the midsized and larger markets.

I don’t see Alpha wanting to create a situation where you still don’t have that calling card, that person carrying the flag that really makes a listener say, “I want to hear what so-and-so is saying.” So, I think you’ll see more AI a few years from now, but again, supplemental and not replacing personalities. Look, that could be incredibly naive of me, but I still believe that’s the case. 

DR: You mentioned that Live 95.5 and AI Ashley got all of the attention. Was the attention mainly media driven as “this thing is weird and interesting”, or did you hear from some advertisers about what they thought or what this might mean for them going forward? 

MH: It’s funny when you talk about it, Phil [Becker, Alpha’s EVP of Content] did say in his head it was like a marketing event. To his credit, he did say he did not want to do the opposite and say, “Hey, let’s just put AI Ashley on the air and let’s not tell anybody. Let’s just kind of fool everybody.”

He wanted to be wide open and transparent about the fact that this is not a real human. It’s actually the AI version of Ashley. I thought that was the brilliance of it.

I think, what radio does so well at its best, although not as much lately, is things like that to get people talking. That’s kind of what that was. That was his main intent. We were really, if I’m not mistaken, the first ones that just called ourselves out for it and said, “this is AI Ashley.” I think that genuine nature of it got a ton of attention. 

DR: As much as I don’t like what could be the trend, I will give Alpha credit where it’s due. I know places that are at least interested in experimenting with AI, and Alpha is the only one that I’ve seen say “here it is!” 

MH: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I think people appreciate the honesty. And the worst thing that can happen is they figure it out on their own and they’re like, “Alright, you just BSed me and now I don’t like you as much anymore. I can’t trust you. 

To learn more about Point-To-Point Marketing’s Podcast and Broadcast Audience Development Marketing strategies, contact Tim Bronsil at tim@ptpmarketing.com or 513-702-5072.