When you think about New York City, it’s easy to form a mental picture of the city’s landmarks, bridges, skyscrapers, and traffic. Maybe you’ll even think of the large melting pot of people, the amazing food, the yellow taxi cabs, the area’s sports teams or the numerous politicians who chase cameras and microphones on a daily basis.
But at the center of everything lies one key word – competition.
Think about the way the big apple has been presented to you over the years. The concrete jungle. Market #1. The city that never sleeps. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. Only in New York. Add them all up and what does it mean? You better stay focused, hungry, and continue evolving every single day because the moment you don’t, might be your last.
For Tim McCarthy, that’s never been a concern. Thirty plus years of passion, drive and success in the nation’s largest market managing some of the biggest brands and personalities buys you not only a little bit of breathing room, but also a front row seat to New York radio history. As much as he’s enjoyed the view though, Tim’s also made sure to leave his prints on the talk radio scene. From Sean Hannity to Stephen A. Smith to Michael Kay and others, McCarthy has played a role in helping launch some of the city’s biggest personalities on both the local and national stages.
Today, you can find Tim in New York doing what he’s always done – using his experience, love for radio and ability to connect with people to deliver results for 98.7 ESPN NY. Sure, his job may include the task of leading ESPN LA 710’s staff from three thousand miles away, and the added challenge of trying to satisfy local fans and clients while doing what’s best for the world’s largest national sports media company, but if this is what life’s biggest problems have become in 2021, McCarthy is more than happy to sign up and deal with it well into the future.
In a city where sports radio ratings stories get shared by multiple newspapers on a monthly basis, McCarthy appreciates that people care enough about his industry to cover it thoroughly. We spoke for forty five minutes last week about the New York sports radio scene, the challenge of serving two masters, the status of the ESPN Radio network, the future of sports betting, challenges with Nielsen, and much more. Tim’s candor and confidence stood out during our conversation, which reminded me that it’s OK to enjoy the ride even in a competitive city like New York. Given all that Tim’s experienced, it’s been one fun, fulfilling professional journey.
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Jason Barrett: Before we dive into your experiences in sports radio, let’s go backwards for a minute and educate folks on where your radio journey began. Where did you get your start?
Tim McCarthy: It started at WPLJ in New York. I was lucky enough to start in retail sales. At the time, WPLJ wasn’t what most knew it to become. It was doing horribly and changing its formula it seemed every other day. The economy wasn’t great either. We had a bunch of revolving morning shows, Archer, David Haney, Rocky Allen and then eventually Scott and Todd. I sold there for three years and then the local sales manager job came open at WABC. Although we were on the same floor it was two different countries. The brands were different, ratings were different, the Yankees were on ABC and not very good, and I pitched myself for the job. I remember 78 people applied for the job. I was lucky enough that Don Bouloukus, who was running ABC Radio at the time, took a liking to me. I guess he liked that I did things a little different, and so I went over to WABC.
JB: So was the move to WABC what opened the door to a run with ESPN? I’m guessing that’s where you crossed paths with Traug Keller right?
TM: I crossed paths with Traug at WABC because I eventually became GM there. I was in that position for 8-9 years. I was Traug’s client because we ran the ABC Radio network. Traug would negotiate those deals with me or call me up and say ‘you’ve got to carry this show, you’re killing me’. What changed was when we got Hannity. We took him from Atlanta and put him on at night. Then Bob Grant left and we thought ‘this guy’s pretty good’ and we moved him into afternoon drive. He was young, in his 30’s, and it clicked, so Traug, Mitch Dolan and I got together and said ‘we can syndicate this on all of our stations and force feed the audience.’ Which is how it should work. We made that move on September 10, 2001, the day before 9/11 hit. Talk about timing.
So how that leads to ESPN, I was running WABC and Radio Disney. We got the news in August 2001 that we had picked up an ESPN station. It was going to be all network and we had to put that on the air in 30 days. We went on the air with the station the week before 9/11. That’s how I got involved with the brand.
JB: So the ESPN station you’re referring to is 1050. That station would soon employ Rob Astorino, Wally & The Keeg, and Brandon Tierney among others.
TM: We did in fact have Senator Astorino there. Wally and the Keeg were the only show we aired that wasn’t from the network. Then we added Brandon to host shows at night.
JB: I remember BT would turn the sports updates into :60 to :90 second talk shows. He definitely belonged hosting a show, updates were not his cup of tea.
TM: BT definitely had a lot of personality and he’s gone on to have a very successful career. I’d love having him back in our company someday. So sadly, everything with 1050 happened around 9/11. We took over this station, and nobody paid much attention to it for the first few months. It had been a Jewish radio station before we took control of it. We started simulcasting WABC on both signals first. That was what most people cared about. That put us kind of behind the fray for the first two years in terms of building the 1050 brand.
JB: You mentioned earlier that you started your career in sales. I know many though who’ve worked with you who say you’ve got a lot of strong opinions on programming. You’ve worked with a number of smart programmers including Justin Craig, Dave Roberts, Kevin Graham, Ryan Hurley, Mike Thompson, and Aaron Spielberg just to name a few. Given you have such a strong interest in content and talent and an important voice in shaping ESPN’s major market brands, how did you develop your programming instincts?
TM: Honestly, it was at WABC. I just love the talk format. The more I got into it and listened and heard things whether it be from a caller or someplace else. We had a caller named John Batchelor. I heard John one Friday night while I was driving home from the city, and I called the producer on Monday and asked ‘who was that guy you had on the air on Friday night?’ He said, ‘that was John Batchelor and Paulie who worked with Bloomberg Digital or Bloomberg Magazine.’ I said ‘those guys are really interesting’ and I went to Phil Boyce and said ‘we should put him on more’.
I think I just got better with understanding things over time. At first, people are like ‘yeah OK buddy, you don’t know what you’re talking about’, but over time when things become more successful, you kind of earn your keep. John’s show became a huge hit and we wound up syndicating it. Hannity was another who I felt strongly about as the replacement for Bob Grant. Then we brought John Gambling over, and added Curtis & Kuby and Warner Wolf, so for me it’s all about seeing something grow from here to there. Look at Stephen A. Smith. He was on 1050 and is now a rockstar and I couldn’t be happier for him. In the old days, as a PD you would try someone out at night, listen to how they do, see if some numbers pop, and if they showed something you might move them to middays. Then if that kicks, you consider AM or PM drive. It’s harder to do that these days and I think that’s one of the bigger problems we have in the industry right now.
JB: I’ve always thought it’s silly to assume that someone who’s worked in sales can’t add value to a programming conversation and the same with programming folks not being able to make a difference in revenue discussions. That’s something I pride myself on and I know other programmers in the format who do as well. Ultimately creating must-listen programming comes down to having people on the air who are unique, talented, and interesting. It’s easier when you see someone like Michael Kay or Stephen A. and can look at their body of work and feel comfortable trusting them with a prime spot on your radio station, but you’ve helped elevate folks like Rick DiPietro, Chris Canty and Peter Rosenberg too who also had talent but didn’t walk in the door with lengthy sports media resumes. When it comes to identifying a talent to contribute to one of your radio stations, what is it you’re looking for?
TM: There are a few things. First, what role are they going to play? John Batchelor is probably a little different, but Peter, Chris and Rick, what role are they going to play within a show to add something different and help us win? I think that’s important. Not everyone can do it. Sometimes guys overpower each other and it doesn’t work. You mentioned Michael Kay, Michael has evolved incredibly over the years. I told Michael a long time ago ‘being the Yankees guy is not going to be good enough’. You have to be more than that and remember that it’s about the entertainment and sports not sports and entertainment.
So I think it circles back to roles, and then secondarily, if it’s a singular role and not part of a team, how can I develop this person to be different than anything else that’s out there. That’s kind of what made Peter a great fit for us. A lot of people thought I was nuts at the time for bringing him in, including myself, and I remember going to see Michael at the stadium and tell him ‘you’re not going to like this but here’s what I want to do’. He said ‘isn’t that the disco guy on Hot 97?’ I said ‘if everyone knows the role they have to play on a show it’ll work because the entertainment value will be better.’
JB: What I find fascinating about this is that doing that with one group in one building is hard enough. But then you factor in that you have to also oversee ESPN Los Angeles, a brand in the 2nd largest market in America, and then oh by the way, make sure that anything you do also keeps the bosses in Bristol happy because they too have certain things they want to see happen with your local stations given that they own them. How do you balance trying to appease both the local and national overlords?
TM: It’s not easy. Norby Williamson who we report to gets it. He understands the value of ratings and personalities. What I think is important is that the PD’s understand the symmetry from show to show. Network and local can work really well together if everyone understands the symmetry and connections. That includes updating creative promos, getting the network talent on the local shows and the local hosts on the national shows.
The other thing too we’ve done, if we feel a local show is stronger we’ll take all of the network elements and run them in the local show. We may have to cut back on our local inventory but now we’ve served the network in the hopes that we can get a higher rating that benefits everyone. In LA it’s a little more difficult due to the time change. We actually just added two local hours to the lineup.
The challenge is the same, it’s getting everyone to believe in the same thing, and understand the common good. Listen, sometimes local may have to take it on the chin because it’s better for the company.
JB: But I know you, and you’re a very competitive guy. So too are some of the people you manage. You go back to last year, and 98.7 ESPN NY was rolling. The Kay Show was especially strong in afternoons, and then a number of national changes were made, the station expanded to six shows during a 13-hour period which I’m sure like most operators you had to have questions about, and soon thereafter the momentum slowed down. I understand that sometimes you have to give up some ground to do what’s best for the overall business, but you also have to deal with those folks on the inside who are going to look at you and say ‘Timmy, we’re right there, and now you want us to take our foot off the gas?’ How do you handle that?
TM: I get those questions all the time. You’re right, our guys are very competitive, as am I. The honest answer is that when you work for a great company like ESPN, there’s the benefits and the things you have to adapt to. I would say that our benefits far outweigh the other things that some may have an issue with. As a manager, I try to make that clear to people.
Here’s an example, if we have the World Series and the Yankees are in it, we may not have the local rights but now all of a sudden we love running the network. Listen, it’s not easy, but again, there’s a bigger play here. The company provides us with great promotion and opportunity and it works. I think in some ways, and I hope folks understand what I mean when I say this, but the local ESPN stations in some ways are a minor league system for talent. We’ve got Alan Hahn, Chris Carlin, Bob Wischusen, and Bart Scott all doing stuff for us. That’s a good thing for the station, the talent, and the company. So again, sometimes you take it on the chin, but the overall benefit is positive.
My goal is to get people to a better place. Chris Canty did First Take last week. I gave him the week off to focus on that show because he hasn’t done it. Ryan and my sales team were ticked, and rightfully so. They should’ve been mad at me. But I said to them ‘For the good of Chris and the company, I’m going to give him the time off. Our guy is there. He’s in the Olympics. We have to give him the shot to perform. If we lose ratings or revenue for this one week because of it then shame on us. Then we didn’t do something right to make up for him being away.’
JB: Having spent time focusing on the juggling act between local and national, I want to pick your brain on the network. As you know, hundreds of stations take the company’s programming. The identity of ESPN has always been strong, but anytime change takes place, folks are going to have questions. As you look at ESPN Radio today, what do you see as its biggest advantages, and what are some things you believe need to be improved?
TM: The biggest strength of course is the ESPN brand. Affiliates want that brand association. I also believe our play by play is a big strength of ours. Take for instance a game like Clemson-Georgia to kick off college football. That’s a huge game and we have it. Those are I think huge strengths.
In the past, we’ve done a great job developing talent, and right now it’s a work in progress. The network folks are trying different things and seeing what works, and look, it’s hard. We’re a multiplatform company that likes to do multiplatform things, so the question becomes ‘how can we serve our entire audience the right way, satisfy our affiliates, and still generate ratings?’ That’s really hard. I’m a big believer that you always have to be filling the pipeline. But you also have a year and a half of Covid and pipelines cost money. So that’s a challenge too, where do we invest our money? It’s not perfect but I know the network is looking really hard at different things and hopefully it pays off in the long run.
JB: I’ve talked to Dave and Justin before, and both want to deliver for the affiliates. Yes the brand is massive, and that association with the network is worth some of the trade offs for stations when the network is going thru changes. Stations may bitch because they want certain things but they partner with ESPN because they know those four letters have value. That said, I’ve been critical of one thing which I know frustrates affiliates and that’s the inconsistency with the network’s weekday lineup. Change is OK. Everyone goes thru it. But when it happens multiple times in less than a year, it’s going to lead to folks becoming impatient. If you were running a local brand not owned by ESPN and asking local advertisers to support you and local people to listen to you, it’d be hard to expect them to stay loyal when every few months you have to report back with news of another change. Eventually they’re going to be less enthusiastic because stability is important. As a GM, and someone who deals with affiliates and speaks their language, how do you alleviate their concerns that better days are ahead for the network?
TM: Change is never good or easy. There’s always pain with change and we have to all be willing to accept that. By the same token, we have to take chances and one of the challenges we have is that we run our programming on both TV and radio. We may be killing it on TV but not on radio and for the overall good, that’s a win. You look at bringing Mike Greenberg back to radio, that’s a homerun. I don’t care what his ratings are, he does a great radio show. I tell our salespeople all the time, if you can’t sell Greeny and the type of show he does then shame on you.
I would tell affiliates to keep wrapping their heads around the brand. We’re going to keep looking for ways to improve. They’re taking ESPN Radio for a reason. If they felt they had something much better they’d probably not be taking us. We’re glad they do, and it’s not perfect, and change is not easy for everyone, but we’re making moves to try and provide better programming to help everyone.
JB: Let’s move away from the programming discussion for a second and talk about the personal challenges you and many others in leadership positions were forced to navigate over the past fifteen months. Traug left the company, you took on Los Angeles along with New York, and then weeks later the pandemic hits, the industry gets rocked financially, ESPN goes thru some changes on-air and in key leadership roles, and all the while you’re trying to lead staffs while dealing with limitations caused by governments installing measures to try and keep people safe. What has that been like for you?
TM: I’ll tell you what’s been really frustrating, is the fact that I can’t be in LA. I was going out there every other week and I really like our team there. I was excited that the three months before we were building momentum and felt we were going to do some really great things and then the pandemic hit. I’ll tell ya Jason, it’s really hard to manage people over Zoom. We’ve gotten used to it and made the most of the situation but the challenge is ‘how do we motivate people and keep their heads in the game this way?’ Let’s face it, anyone who says ‘I’m working 10x harder than I ever did’ probably isn’t.
I think the quality of certain things have gotten better. The conversations have definitely been better. The advertising side has been really frustrating. Our business, regardless of how much it changes, is still going to be ‘meet, greet, trust’, all those things that matter. Particularly on the retail side. Let’s say you’re meeting with a car dealer, they’ve been with you, you’re going to put a plan together, he or she trusts you, and you both feel good that it’s going to work. But now, we have situations where automobile can’t get cars. The beer business can’t get cans. So what happens? We’re not going to advertise right now, we’re going to push it off. Sports betting fortunately has been tremendous. But you throw all those other factors in, while not being able to see people to sell them, and it’s been nothing but a challenge.
As we come out of it, and I’ve had this discussion with my team, how do we keep motivating our staff and our advertisers? I believe radio is going to come back stronger. I don’t think people are going to be jumping on a bus or train anytime soon. You see it with the traffic in New York. The in-car experience is going to be really important. We’ve done a lot of Zoom events with clients in both NY and LA. We did one with the NY Jets, another with AROD, and we did an NFL Draft show. Engagement, engagement, engagement is very important. Our sales manager Pete Doherty had a great idea, we had these 98.7 ESPN NY speakers ‘listen at home’, and we sent them out to our clients. We’ve got to get our call letters in front of everyone because the number of meters that are out there haven’t increased.
JB: You just struck a nerve because that is a conversation that we could spend hours on. The sports radio format in my opinion remains largely underrepresented. It’s maddening because the programming not only reaches way more people than it gets credit for, but the framing of the format as a niche space rather than as one of the most important places an advertiser can put their business in is foolish. For instance, I produce quarterly ratings stories on this website. We show how stations in the format perform from city to city and most do pretty well. However, these numbers don’t show the true power of their streaming sessions, podcast downloads, TV simulcasts, content created or promoted on social media, etc.. We’re positioned as this niche format that performs for one specific demographic and the results are based on what 8-10 people carrying this antiquated device do yet sports is one of the most important parts of society and one of the last true content destinations where people have to listen live. I know our full reach and influence is greater than the story we present but at the same time, as an industry, that’s partly our fault because we’re the ones who’ve signed up for this service and accepted it, knowing that it doesn’t reflect what we’re delivering on a daily basis.
TM: Exactly. The audio business is very large. I’ve said this all along, Nielsen can not play Switzerland. They have to actually make statements. They can’t allow folks who sell their stream in a different advertising space to combine their streaming numbers and throw it out in the marketplace. It’s no different than me taking Michael Kay’s TV numbers on YES and throwing them into a sales plan when I’m not running the same commercials. I think Nielsen has to embrace all of these platforms and come up with a real measurable way to say here’s a true number. If they’re not going to increase meters, they need to deliver all this stuff. We have radio shows that are offered in multiple locations yet we don’t get radio credit if people consume it on social media or television. How much are we losing because someone says ‘I love the show but I’m going to watch it on TV?’
Once again, it drives down this editorial from the press that radio is going this way while podcasting is going the other way. Podcasting is a radio station in short form. We need to start getting credit for the things we do and whether it’s Nielsen, ourselves or the industry as a whole, we need to come up with a solution because we’re doing a lot of the right things but don’t have enough to show for it.
JB: Before I got on a tangent over ratings, you mentioned earlier how important sports betting business has been to radio. I want to dive deeper into that space for a minute because everyone recognizes that the category is hot right now and being able to seize the opportunity is important. But where does this road eventually lead to? Do we eventually have an ESPN The Bet? Does Betcasting around live games become more mainstream? Do we one day have a surplus of national sports radio betting networks the way we have a flood of sports television programming on television? How do you see this shaping up?
TM: It’s not going to go away. It’s always been here. It’s always been part of our lexicon in the sports world. The only difference is it wasn’t allowed to be broadcast or pushed and now it is. You have these great companies like DraftKings, FanDuel and others doing it and our format is where the fish are. We consume it, bet on it, and live it. Do I think it’s going to be a bigger content play? I do but I don’t think it’ll ever replace great personalities. If a great talent can provide strong entertainment value you won’t have to worry about it because you’ll drive ratings and revenue.
Will sports betting content become a bigger part of other areas whether it’s weekend shows, nighttime shows or vignettes? Yes. I think that’s going to grow. But I don’t think it’s going to grow to the level where you’re replacing shows like Michael Kay’s afternoon program or SportsCenter simply because it’s more focused on betting.
JB: Let’s wrap up on a few New York sports radio items. Each day you wake up and you go to work representing the bigger brand in sports in the nation’s top market, facing the brand that started the format, WFAN. You’ve taken your hits from them, and you’ve also caused them some real headaches along the way. What is the best and worst part about the daily grind of going head to head against The Fan?
TM: First, our biggest challenge is whether or not the radio is off. Next, our competitor isn’t WFAN. It’s any male brand that can take our audience away. The challenge I love is the everyday battle of how are we going to do things better, faster, younger, etc..
Listen, The Fan is a great radio station. They always have been. Their brand is huge. They got good people there. I know their market manager Chris Oliviero. He’s a great guy. I love the fact that they never give up and it’s always a head to head battle. It’s Curry vs. LeBron. I remember when I was on the AM band starting out, it wasn’t the same. Now, everyone is always adapting. That’s good. It keeps everyone on their game. We have the ESPN brand, and all the things we do around that brand are important. Simple things such as ‘what promos are we creating to build up interest in the Knicks playoff game and the shows on Monday?’ That’s the stuff I drive Ryan crazy over.
The downside is that it never ends. As good as you are, you’re always pushing that rock up hill. If we beat The Fan, great, that’s now, what’s next? They’re not going to give up. They’re going to make changes. They brought in Craig Carton, we knew that was going to happen, and they keep coming so what are we doing to stay on top of our game?
JB: You mentioned Craig. I don’t know if you saw this, but Michael was on JJ’s podcast and he mentioned being more concerned competing against Craig than he was with Mike Francesa. Those prior battles against Francesa drew a lot of attention, and the road ahead vs. Carton should provide more of the same. When you hear that, what do you tell Michael?
TM: I tell Michael, Don and Peter all the time, keep doing the show you’re doing. They’ve been successful for a reason. They’re a morning show in afternoon drive. I listen to that show for the camaraderie, storytelling, the bits and connection they have with their audience. Don’t worry about Craig or anyone else. The listeners will seek out what they want. You can’t adapt to them. I tell them ‘Guys, you’re doing a great job, don’t worry about it. When Ryan or I hear something that’s off, we’ll tell you. We don’t hear that though so keep rolling.’
JB: The last thing I have for you is ‘what keeps you motivated to do what you’re doing and are there any goals you haven’t accomplished yet that you still hope to achieve?
TM: I love working with the talent and helping them get to the next level. Whether it be someone like Chris Canty earning a bigger role on TV or something else. This is going to sound kind of lame but my job is to help people get to that next place. That keeps me engaged. I’m also proud of the fact that a lot of people have stayed with this radio station in New York for a long time, all the way back to when people were making fun of us when we were on 1050AM. Now they’re not making fun anymore. They care about this brand and the people involved in it. That keeps me energized.
And the same with LA. I was out there eight years ago and now I’m back involved and we have a really good group that gives a crap about radio and what we do every single day. Whether it’s a call on a Friday night or the weekend, I have no problem taking those calls because they care. As I tell everyone at the station, listen more. If you hear something that doesn’t sound right, let us know about it. I like taking on challenges and helping brands and people improve. We want our products to be the best they can be. Just being able to make things a little better keeps me motivated and engaged.
Jason Barrett is the President and Founder of Barrett Media since the company was created in September 2015. Prior to its arrival, JB served as a sports radio programmer, launching brands such as 95.7 The Game in San Francisco, and 101 ESPN in St. Louis. He also spent time programming SportsTalk 950 in Philadelphia, 590 The Fan KFNS in St. Louis, and ESPN 1340/1390 in Poughkeepsie, NY. Jason also worked on-air and behind the scenes in local radio at 101.5 WPDH, WTBQ 1110AM, and WPYX 106.5. He also spent two years on the national stage, producing radio shows for ESPN Radio in Bristol, CT. Among them included the Dan Patrick Show, and GameNight.
You can find JB on Twitter @SportsRadioPD. He’s also reachable by email at Jason@BarrettMedia.com.
