Believe it or not, there is a lot of common ground between coaching an NFL team and coaching a radio station. Take this quote for instance; is it from a coach or a programmer? “We have to focus on ourselves and we have to focus on our process and our vision. That’s just to continue to grow, continue to get better every week.” It’s from Buffalo Bills head coach Sean McDermott before he faced the New England Patriots for the first time back in 2017. It sounds an awful lot like Jeff Catlin too.
Catlin is the Program Director at 96.7 The Ticket in Dallas. Like McDermott and many other NFL coaches and teams, Catlin focuses on his building and staff, not the competition. Sure, he politely answers a question about Mike Rhyner, the Godfather of The Ticket, coming out of retirement to join a new crosstown rival, The Freak. But Catlin isn’t distracted by what other stations in town are doing. He makes it clear that his focal point is The Ticket.
Catlin also talks about the most important lesson for a PD to learn, why talking about non-sports topics works for some stations but not others, and The Ticket being nominated for what would be its fifth Marconi for Sports Station of the Year. Enjoy!
Brian Noe: Where are you originally from?
Jeff Catlin: I’m from Arlington, Texas, USA.
BN: Okay, wow, so you haven’t strayed too far from your backyard?
JC: Yeah, I was the PD of KCMO AM in Kansas City from 2000 to 2003. But otherwise, yeah, I’ve spent the entirety of my career in Dallas Fort Worth, except for those two and a half years.
BN: What were those two and a half years like for you in Kansas City being away from home?
JC: It was great. I love Kansas City. I think Kansas City is a great town, it’s a great place to live. It was a great learning experience. That was my first PD job. I was able to really learn a lot there. It was with the same company I had been working for, so in terms of a move it wasn’t that difficult. It’s not too far away from where I was from. We had family and friends visit a lot and we came back to Texas a lot. It all worked out great.
The main difference business-wise in a town like Kansas City versus a market like Dallas, is there was really just three radio companies working in Kansas City at the time. In a market like Dallas, you have all three of the major companies, and then you have another three or four smaller broadcasters, and then a bunch of mom and pops. There’s a lot more competition here. There’s also a lot more companies doing business, where in Kansas City, it was much smaller.
BN: What led to you becoming a PD in the first place?
JC: When I was here at The Ticket in Dallas, Susquehanna was the company at the time. I was the assistant PD and I was the producer of the afternoon drive show. I knew that I wanted to be a PD. The PD here at the time wasn’t really going anywhere; he was kind of entrenched. I had had this goal professionally that I wanted to try to be a PD before I was 30 years old. When this opening came up in Kansas City, as I mentioned, it was with the same company for KCMO. So I went to my bosses in Dallas and said, ‘Hey, this is something that I want to apply for; it’s something that I really want to do.’
It was a different format. It was a news talk format versus a sports format. I thought that was great. It was still spoken word, but it would just give me another opportunity to try something similar, yet different format-wise. They encouraged me and the fact that it was with the same company kind of gave me a safety net because if I got the job, which I did, I would still be working with all the same corporate folks and it would kind of help me along. I thought that was really great and it turned out to be a great.
We had some success when I was there. The station was kind of starting over and it did allow me to learn a lot of different things. I learned some lessons as being a program director there that I still carry with me to this day. Overall, it was just a great experience. When I got there, I never thought I would move back to Dallas again, or come back to The Ticket. That wasn’t my intention.
My intention was to take that job in Kansas City at KCMO and be there and see where it led from there. That was how I approached it. I think that’s the way that you have to approach things, you can’t really approach a job like you’re only going to be there for a year or two because otherwise you’re always looking down the road and you’re not giving that particular station at that particular time your full attention and focus.
BN: What were a couple of the most important things that you needed to learn back then that you still apply today?
JC: The number one thing for any young programmer is just remember that it’s always about the people. When I was younger and when I got that job I just had a bunch of ideas for the format clocks and service elements and the promos and the rejoin beds and what I want the content to be focused on and all those kind of things. And that’s great. So you write all these notes down on your legal pad. But at some point, you have to be in a conference room, or a studio, or an office with the people that are on the air and running the board and producing those shows and doing the news updates. You’ve got to communicate your vision to them and they have to execute it.
You can have the best sounding radio station playing in your head 24/7, but at some point it’s about the people. It’s about communicating to your team what you want, and what your expectations are, coaching them on the way things are being done that are right, and those that need to be improved, and then getting all those ideas out onto the air. It ultimately comes down to somebody else. I think that’s hugely important to remember as a PD because you have to empower folks to do those things, and you have to communicate at every level in every way to people, what that vision is, how to execute it, and then how to follow up and critique and all those kinds of things.
Everybody’s different. You hear this all the time about people: ‘Well, everybody’s personality is different.’ And that’s so true. Some people want to be told. Some people want to be shown. Some people want to see a memo. Some people need all three. I think that was a big thing that I learned initially was just because you’re the PD and you have an idea and you say something, it doesn’t mean it’s going to make it on the air immediately.
BN: The Ticket strays outside of just hardcore sports. And it’s worked for you guys tremendously. Why does that formula work so well for your station?
JC: I think it’s kind of a misconception among sports radio listeners and programmers and talent is that this is the formula that works, X, Y, or Z. First of all, every city and every market is different. What works on the East Coast is not going to work in Dallas, Texas, and what’s working in Dallas may not work in California, or Seattle, Washington. Every market is different.
Going way back to the early days of The Ticket, and I was part of that, we went several years where all we did was talk about sports. I use this joke all the time; for the first two or three years we were on the air, all we talked about was does Pete Rose belong in the Hall of Fame and who’s better, Emmitt Smith or Barry Sanders.
But over time, as you start to develop the radio station and develop a relationship with your audience — and this is super important — without a very strong relationship with your audience based on sports or whatever, they’re not going to really allow you as a talk show host or producer or station to kind of stray from what you’re known for. It’s like listening to a country station and they drop in an oldies record. Well, they’re not going to really be down for that.
You have to understand what you’re trying to accomplish first, build the relationship with your audience second, and you will know at that time based on those factors when it’s okay to stray from sports. The reason we kind of knew it was working for us back then, is that when we would stray off into something more pop culture or more timely or newsworthy, we would hear from our listeners that they liked it and it was memorable for them. It was something they could relate to.
As the years have gone on, we kind of developed — again, in this market with our audience with this radio station — what worked, and what balance was right for us between sports and non-sports segments. Now, I think a lot of sports stations do it and they say they’re copying The Ticket or whatever, but it’s different for everyone.
The other thing here at the radio station is our main talk show talent has been with the radio station, some of them for as long as 28 years, and the newcomers have been here for 15 or 20 years. It’s not like we’re hiring people new coming into town and they’re immediately not talking about sports. That relationship with the audience happens along with a radio station organically and it grows over years. Then you have talent and shows that are working together for years and growing up on the air together and with their audience.
When you’ve been on the air for decades, just think about what happens not just in sports, but in life over the last 20 years. A pandemic, 9/11, different wars, protests, Michael Jackson died, it doesn’t just have to be news things, it can be pop culture things. But as those things happen, that’s what people talk about regardless of sports. Yeah, sure, they’re talking about Aaron Judge too, or they’re talking about the Cowboys winning the Super Bowl or not winning the Super Bowl, but they’re also going home and talking to their family about things that matter to them.
To be a radio station over the long haul in a market going on 28 years like The Ticket, you have to recognize that and really ultimately, that’s what we’re doing. We’re talking about what our listeners are talking about. And 85, 90, 95% of the time on a station like The Ticket, they care about sports. But there’s other times where things are more important in the world than sports.
You have to have that broad understanding of your audience and your station and the growth that you’ve had together and the responsibility and the relationship. That’s what allows you to understand and have the ability and the responsibility to talk about other things outside of sports. It’s not something that happens overnight, or because someone in a programming office says this is the way that we’re going to do it. It just doesn’t work that way I don’t think.
BN: Do you ever hear stations in Dallas or around the country that try to talk about things beyond sports and it just doesn’t go over well?
JC: Every single day.
BN: [Laughs]
JC: [Laughs] End of answer. Every single day.
BN: What do you attribute that to where it either fits and it works, or it’s forced and it’s just lame?
JC: I think it really goes back to the previous answer, which was a long answer but it’s really true. It’s just understanding what your station is about, how it’s being consumed by listeners, what relationship you have with your audience, and what they really will allow you to do based on those factors. I think sometimes it falls flat for any of those reasons, or it falls flat because the topic selection isn’t correct.
In other words, what you’re going off the sports page for isn’t the right topic, or it’s not something that resonates with the audience, or it’s not handled in a way that’s entertaining or informative. Some of those things are kind of like non-negotiables, right? Great storytelling is great storytelling. Having an opinion that resonates with your audience regardless of what the topic is, is universal. I think those are some of the reasons why it falls flat or it doesn’t work.
BN: You mentioned a lot of competition in Dallas. What’s your reaction to Mike Rhyner coming out of retirement after starting The Ticket to join The Freak?
JC: Well, when I first heard the rumors I was so surprised I didn’t believe it. And now I’m just sad about it. I just wish it wasn’t happening. But we’ve faced a lot of competition over the years and we take every competitor in this market, regardless of who’s there and what format they are, very seriously. And that’s what we’ll do in this case too.
BN: Why do you feel sadness about Mike?
JC: Because I think Mike has a home at The Ticket for life. And I thought that if he was itching to get back into radio, this is where he would have come and since he didn’t that makes me sad.
BN: Yeah, totally fair. Whether it’s that station or any other station popping up, does the competition have any impact on the way you approach things at The Ticket?
JC: Regardless of what new stations pop up, or have popped up over the last three years, we’re constantly evaluating the way we do things and changing them. Always. For example, I would say that for the most part, no media outlet, no radio station, no male-targeted radio station does the same content now that we did prior to 2017 and the Me Too movement for just one example. There are certain things that you could get away with saying 15 years ago, or 10 years ago, or five years ago, that you can’t say now. And that’s fine. That’s what we all do.
As a society, we’re all constantly evolving, we’re educating ourselves, we’re learning, and we change with it. I think that goes for The Ticket too. No matter who’s in town or not in town, or who our competitors are or aren’t, we’ve always felt like our bar is ourselves. We’re constantly evaluating what we’re doing. We want to constantly evolve and make it exciting and new for listeners, whether they’ve just moved into town or they’ve been with us for 10 years or since day one. If you don’t do that, I don’t think you make it as long and have as much success as The Ticket would have had if we just stayed the same.
BN: The Ticket is nominated for Marconi Sports Station of the Year again. The station won last year and four times altogether. When The Ticket is honored like that, what does it mean to you and the entire staff?
JC: I mean, I’m not gonna lie, it’s pretty fun. It’s great. And I love it for the guys. Last year, we won Sports Station of the Year and my morning show won their first Marconi for Major Market Personalities of the Year after having been nominated like eight times. Like, seriously, you don’t have a radio station winning Marconis like The Ticket, and you don’t have a radio station with the ratings success over the years with The Ticket without a fantastic morning show. I think The Musers are the best morning show in the country, regardless of format. That was a completely deserved and well-earned Marconi last year, and I am just so happy for them.
But last year to win both, for the station and for those guys to win, it was a huge day around here for everybody. It matters to everybody, that every person that worked here last year, or have worked here before, has a piece of those things. It goes to everybody. Not just me, it’s not about me, it’s about them. I just get super excited and super thrilled for them because in radio that’s like our Super Bowl. To have four of them sitting in there feels pretty good. It’s fun.
BN: It makes all the sense in the world to get fired up when winning those big awards. Who wouldn’t be excited for that? On a day-to-day basis though, what excites you? You just said that’s like your Super Bowl, what’s like a solid Week 7 win?
JC: Well, first of all, being in the media business, we all understand what our report cards are when they come in every month. That is prime goal number one. That’s what we’re doing this for, so that gets me fired up every day. But what is a random win on a day is I just want us to, number one, have fun, and to be executing to the best of our ability on that day, whatever it is. I want the guys to be in the studio having a great time. I want them to be talking about stuff our listeners care about. I want them to be passionate. I want to laugh. I want to have a good time. I want to have something thought-provoking happening.
It’s all those little things that happen throughout the day that make me excited to come to work. It’s the personal relationships I have with everybody up here and that we’re all on the same team and we’re all a part of this thing and everybody is still so into it and excited about it. That’s what is fun for me. That’s what gets me fired up to come in here every day. That’s how I measure our success on the day-to-day. And then those monthly report cards that I talked about sure are nice too.
BN: If you could write the script, what do you think would make you happiest over the next five years for you and the station?
JC: I think to just continue to have the great success that all these guys have had and we enjoy it together. I think that’s the most important thing that you realize as you do this for a long time with largely the same core group of guys, is we want to be together, and we want to continue to do what we’re doing, and we want to continue to do it at the highest possible level we can for as long as we can. I don’t mean that to be generic. I think that’s as true as it possibly can be.
I want this radio station to continue on long after I’m not working here anymore. If that’s not anytime soon, I just want to keep doing what we’ve been doing with the same group of people that we’ve had. Just enjoy ourselves and to continue to change what we’ve been doing and to be leaders here in town.
I think that’s something that we think about and probably take more seriously than we did 15 years ago because it didn’t matter. Our position in the market now and the way that we can serve the community is just as important as making the community laugh or goofing around or whatever. And that stuff’s fun too, but we just have a responsibility to serve the community. I think that’s important to continue to do that in the best way that we can.
Brian Noe is a columnist for BSM and an on-air host heard nationwide on FOX Sports Radio’s Countdown To Kickoff. Previous roles include stops in Portland, OR, Albany, NY and Fresno, CA. You can follow him on Twitter @TheNoeShow or email him at bnoe@premierenetworks.com.
I’ve read plenty of stories on PDs before, the wins/loses, the “how to” of being a PD, the fact there’s no “I” in team, etc.
This by Brian on Jeff Catlin’s approach, the working with talent/coaching, the TEAM, the heritage of a station, the competition, is without a doubt a must read for any and all PDs.
There’s a reason Jeff Catlin has been at the top of the mountain for so long. Jeff embodies everything we all strive to be in this business. Loved the read!