Thank you for checking out The Industry According To. Every Tuesday we speak with a different expert or leader from the vast music industry — label executives, artist managers, programmers, talent, artists, consultants, and beyond. To be considered as a future guest, email me at keithblackboxgroup@gmail.com.

Today we sit down with Dave “Chachi” Denes — President and Co-Founder of Benztown and Benztown Radio Networks. Chachi has lived on both sides of the radio aisle: producer, PD in Los Angeles, syndicator, imaging supplier, and now leader of one of the largest audio branding companies in the world. His perspective is rare. He understands talent, programming, syndication, imaging, and the business realities facing radio and the vast audio industry today.

So, let’s dive in.

*Editor’s Note: Answers have been edited for clarity and length.*

May As Well Get Right to It

Keith: You’ve been a PD, producer, syndicator, supplier. You see the quarterly earnings, hear the conversations, and get it all from every angle. Give it to us straight: how optimistic are you that radio rights the ship and gets back to a place where brands can invest in product again instead of living in permanent cutback mode?

Chachi: There’s no denying it’s been a tough few years. It’s been incredibly difficult to watch so many friends and colleagues lose their jobs, and I don’t take that lightly. But I really believe optimism is a force multiplier. I think I stole that from Michael J. Fox’s book, so I can’t take credit for it. Lol. And there are real reasons to be optimistic. Radio’s audience has been remarkably resilient despite an explosion of competition from Spotify, YouTube, podcasts, TikTok and everything else.

To me, our biggest problem isn’t necessarily an audience problem. It’s a monetization problem. Google, Meta and Amazon have become gigantic advertising machines, and an enormous amount of ad dollars have shifted to those platforms. Simultaneously, social media is facing increasing scrutiny, particularly around children. I think there’s a reasonable chance we eventually see more guardrails there.

I’m also encouraged by things like DTS AutoStage, better measurement and the continued appeal of analog experiences. People are still listening to radio. The challenge is getting the economics to catch back up with the audience. If we can do that, I believe there’s still tremendous runway ahead.

Live & Local vs. Syndication

Keith: As a former programmer, you understand the rally cries behind “live and local.” However, corporate downsizing and revenue pressures have made syndication the default position for more and more stations. What real advantages does syndication have over live and local in 2026 and beyond?

Chachi: I see a place for both. To me, it’s like a custom suit versus a ready-to-wear suit.

Nothing fits or looks better than a great custom suit. Just ask Mike McVay and Chris Forgy — those guys are always dressed to the nines, and it’s part of their brand. But custom suits are expensive, they take time to make, and sometimes you have to go to the tailor multiple times just to get the measurements right.

There are also some tremendous ready-to-wear suits. They may not fit quite as perfectly as something custom-made, but they can still look and feel fantastic, they’re far more affordable, and you can get them a lot faster.

I think radio is the same way. If you can afford to invest in great live and local talent, absolutely do it. There’s nothing better than somebody who genuinely understands the market, lives there, knows the people and can react to what’s happening in real time.

But if the economics don’t support that, a great syndicated show can be an excellent product. A ready-to-wear Canali still looks pretty damn sharp.

The thing I’d avoid at all costs is the cheap suit, because everybody can spot that from a mile away. And in radio, whether it’s local or syndicated, bad content is still bad content.

The Future of Syndication

Keith: What’s the future of syndication? Will it be dominated by big national brands like Seacrest, or will niche and regionalized brands like Todd-N-Tyler become more valuable?

Chachi: I think the future of syndication is going to be a mix of both — national and regional.

The United States is a huge country geographically, and different parts have their own feel, culture, sensibilities and tastes. So I don’t think one size is always going to fit all.

There will always be a place for big national brands. Someone like Ryan Seacrest has enormous name recognition. He’s really become the Dick Clark of our era. He’s safe for the family, plays well across the entire country, and in some ways he’s like McDonald’s: you know exactly what you’re going to get. There’s a lot of value in that consistency.

A show like Todd-N-Tyler is different. They’re more regionalized. Maybe they’re more like White Castle or In-N-Out. They have a distinctive flavor and a particularly strong connection in certain parts of the country. That’s not to say they couldn’t work elsewhere, but their regional identity is part of what makes them special.

I actually think there’s going to be plenty of room for both models.

At the end of the day, listeners care whether the show feels relevant to them, whether the personalities understand their lifestyle, and whether the content is entertaining.

So I think the sweet spot going forward is great talent that can scale. The syndicated shows that win will be the ones that can be national or regional in scope, but still make a listener feel like the show is talking directly to them.

U.S. vs. The World

Keith: Benztown works with affiliates all around the world. What’s the biggest difference in how other countries “do radio” compared to the U.S., and what’s one thing American brands could learn from them?

Chachi: There’s no doubt that radio is struggling in some international markets too. However, in a number of countries it seems to be holding up a little better than what we’re seeing here in the States.

I think there are a few reasons for that. First and foremost, in many places outside the U.S., there are simply fewer radio stations per capita. America has a lot of radio stations — arguably too many in some markets. We’re starting to see that play out with some licenses being turned in.

Second, in parts of the world, particularly Europe, some broadcasters receive government or public funding. Obviously that’s not true everywhere, but it can reduce the pressure to load stations with commercial inventory. The combination of fewer stations competing for the same audience and, in some cases, fewer commercial units can create greater demand for the inventory. This creates a better listening experience.

That can also give broadcasters more room to invest in marketing, promotions, talent and the overall product.

The other thing I think international broadcasters have really mastered is the network model. Capital in the UK and Europa Plus in Russia are good examples. A lot of the core content can originate from one central location, which makes the operation incredibly efficient. Meanwhile, individual stations in the network can still maintain important local service elements.

Imaging

Keith: Imaging libraries and VO are cornerstones of what Benztown offers. Radio veterans geek out over every detail of imaging, while most listeners just hear it all as “more commercials.” What’s the secret to getting imaging to cut-through instead of becoming wallpaper?

Chachi: In most cases, I think great imaging is like a great picture frame. Think about the Mona Lisa. Most people probably couldn’t describe the frame, but it still helps present the masterpiece. Now imagine it stuck to the wall with a pushpin. You’d definitely notice. Radio imaging is similar: when it’s done well, it reinforces the brand, creates energy and makes everything around it sound better without getting in the way.

There are exceptions. JACK FM is a great example where the imaging actually becomes part of the painting. Garry Wall and his team treat it almost like a late-night TV show, with multiple writers and only a fraction of the material making air. In that case, the imaging should stand out. It needs to be funny, topical, surprising and entertaining.

There are also incredible imaging producers around the world. I’m especially blessed to work with such a talented Custom Imaging Team at Benztown, headed by Tom Green, Royce Stevenson and Peter Murphy. The best producers know when to quietly support the brand and when to swing for the fences. That judgment is really the secret.

VO and AI

Keith: AI replacing VO talent is a major industry concern. Benztown sits in a unique chair. You can lean into AI, double-down on humans, or blend both. But if budgets keep shrinking, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know where it’s headed. So what’s your advice to VO talent? How can they become even more valuable and irreplaceable?

Chachi: As you can imagine, this has been a hot topic at Benztown and with the VO talent and agencies we work with. We do use AI voice technology in products like SPECai and Air Ready. But we’re still firm believers in human VO. The quality is better, humans are often easier to produce, and great human VO is also far more affordable than I think many people assume. By the time you factor in the producer hours it can take to get the pacing, inflection and read right with AI, the savings aren’t always what they appear to be.

I think the future is probably a hybrid model. You could have a great human voice as the foundation of the station’s imaging. With that talent’s permission and participation, use an AI clone for things like breaking news, vacations or last-minute updates. That could actually be a win for talent too. These guys are constantly carrying gear, building pillow studios in hotel rooms and trying to stay available 24/7.

My advice to VO talent is simple: don’t just be a voice, be a partner. Understand the brand, turn things around quickly, bring ideas and build relationships with the programmers and producers you work with. The more value you bring beyond simply reading the copy, the harder you are to replace.

From the Outside Looking Back Inside

Keith: You programmed at the top of the radio mountain. Being out of the day-to-day for many years now, what do you miss most about radio programming? And what would you do differently today than you did back then?

Chachi: I definitely miss certain parts of it. When Clear Channel Los Angeles was firing on all cylinders, I believe there were more than 300 people in that building. The energy was remarkable. Having all of that incredible talent and so many creative people under one roof made for a terrific environment.

I also miss the excitement of doing something big, like flipping KBIG to MYfm. We treated that launch like it was a secret military operation. Lol. There’s nothing quite like the adrenaline of building something behind the scenes for months. Then finally you push the button and hear it come to life on the air.

Ultimately, though, I miss the people and the opportunity to serve the community in a really impactful way. We started the Children’s Hospital Los Angeles Radiothon at KBIG, which is now at KOST with Ellen K. I’m really happy they’ve continued that tradition. To be able to have that kind of impact on an organization like CHLA is incredibly gratifying. I still believe nobody does that better than radio.

The Data Matrix

Keith: When you were a PD, you lived inside ratings. On the network side, you have endless data — usage, renewals, affiliate churn, listener behavior. But when you strip it all down, what’s the most important metric that tells you a syndicated show is working? And what’s the metric that tells you a production library is working?

Chachi: On the syndicated show front, local ratings are still the most important measure of performance. Syndicated talent, like our good friend R Dub!, loves hearing from PDs that Slow Jams is performing well in their market. We don’t always get feedback, but when we do, it feels great.

Ultimately, higher ratings lead to higher AQH. That’s incredibly important from a monetization standpoint. Network talent wants to see success just like local talent does. They want to know the audience is connecting with what they’re doing.

With Production and Imaging libraries, I look at it a little differently. The biggest metric for me is usage and renewal. Are the stations actually using the product? When the agreement comes up, do they want to keep it? You can have a library with thousands of pieces of content. But if programmers and producers aren’t reaching for it every day, it doesn’t really matter. High usage and strong renewals tell you the product has become part of the station’s workflow. That’s when you know it’s working.

Podcasting

Keith: Everyone has a podcast, including you (“Chachi Loves Everybody”), and everyone thinks they can make one work. Clearly that’s not true. Outside of pure talent or subject expertise, what separates a great podcast from one that struggles to get traction?

Chachi: The fact that I have a podcast clearly means anyone can do it! Lol.

In all candor, we’ve produced several podcasts and had some real success. American Afterlife debuted at number one on the Apple Fiction charts. We’ve also had success with The Making Of: A Nat Geo Podcast and Boxes and Lines. But we’ve had several strikeouts too.

Creating a great podcast is harder than I think most people realize. You obviously need compelling content, great storytelling and consistency. But I think the even bigger challenge is discovery. There’s an unbelievable amount of content out there competing for people’s attention. You can make the greatest podcast in the world. But if nobody can find it, it doesn’t really matter.

Only a very small percentage of podcasts ever generate substantial revenue. So it’s definitely not for the faint of heart. That said, when a show does break through, it can be wildly successful and profitable.

Bottom line, great content is table stakes. Discoverability is just as important. You have to make something people want to hear. But you also have to figure out how to get ears on it in the first place.

Broadcaster vs. Podcaster

Keith: You work with syndicated radio shows and podcasters. Both audio, but not the same. What’s the key difference between a broadcaster and podcaster?

Chachi: You and I came up in an era when a lot of talent was coached to sound a certain way. I’m not judging that. Tastes were different. But today authenticity matters much more. The best radio talent are usually pretty close to the same person on and off the air. Podcasting lets them take that authenticity even further because there are fewer guardrails. You can go deeper, stay on a topic longer and really let the conversation breathe.

We’ve seen great radio personalities like Charlamagne tha God, Todd N’ Tyler, Bobby Bones and Klein/Ally do a remarkable job extending their brands into podcasting. But I don’t think broadcasters and podcasters are completely different species. Great talent is great talent. Put Joe Rogan, Alex Cooper or Conan O’Brien on radio and I think they’d be wildly successful there too.

Podcasting has also reopened the door to immersive audio storytelling. Shows like American Afterlife, which we produced, can create these incredibly rich soundscapes. They remind me of classic radio dramas like War of the Worlds. The platforms are different. But the fundamentals are still the same: connect with the audience and give them something worth coming back for.

Saving Network Radio

Keith: Network radio is facing headwinds too. What’s it going to take to revive network so the footing feels more solid? Would finding “the next Howard Stern” fix things overnight, or is it much more complex?

Chachi: The timing couldn’t be better, with Dan Bongino announcing his return to terrestrial radio. The short answer is yes — remarkable talent absolutely strengthens network radio and the medium as a whole. Finding “the next Howard Stern” wouldn’t fix everything overnight. But it would certainly be a shot of adrenaline. Great personalities give listeners a reason to seek out radio. They give advertisers something uniquely valuable to buy.

Agencies have made it clear they place a premium on talent endorsements, sports and other premium content. Unfortunately, much of the network business — including a lot of our own portfolio — is still built around ROS inventory. Those spots don’t command the same rates. Podcasting has only reinforced how valuable that talent relationship can be through host-read advertising.

The other big piece is data and attribution. Advertisers are used to knowing what happened after an ad ran. Radio has to keep closing that gap. That’s why I’m bullish on AutoStage and better in-car data. Give me the next Howard Stern all day long. But great talent, better data and stronger attribution together are the real formula.

Saving Radio

Keith: Same question for radio. What’s the solution from your POV? What will make radio stickier for listeners and advertisers? Talent? A new business model? A new programming strategy? A more interactive car dashboard?

Chachi: First and foremost, we need to remember that we’re in the entertainment business. Sometimes I think radio loses perspective on that and doesn’t hold its head as high as it should. The fact that we’re still relevant to nearly 90% of the population is pretty remarkable given how many entertainment choices people have today. A friend of mine, Damien, owns an ad agency and tells clients that anybody with ten bucks can buy a social media ad. But when you’re on the radio, you’re on “rare air.” I love that.

We also have to protect the listener experience. Fewer commercial units, better creative and compelling content. And ultimately, we have to invest in the team. The Dodgers don’t expect to keep filling the stadium without investing in great players. Radio can’t continually cut talent, programming and marketing and expect the product to improve.

I don’t say that as criticism of operators. I know the last thing they want to do is cut talented people. The economic environment is incredibly challenging. I’m sure most would reinvest in a heartbeat if they could. Technology and a better dashboard can help. But technology alone won’t save radio. Great talent, great content, a better listener experience and a stronger belief in the value of the medium. That’s where I’d start.

The Blank Slate

Keith: Say anything you want to any corner of the radio, audio, or music industry. What do you want them to hear?

Chachi: My heart goes out to everyone who has lost a job during these incredibly challenging years. Buddhism talks a lot about the pain of change. This industry knows that pain far too well. But I’ve always believed moments of crisis can also create opportunity.

What Jason, Stephanie and the team at BSM have built is a great example. Think about all the terrific industry publications that came before — Network 40, Gavin, All Access, R&R — and ultimately closed. That’s not a dig at any of them. It’s really an accolade to what BSM has accomplished. Benztown is similar for me personally. Masa and I were let go from Clear Channel. Had that not happened, there’s a good chance Benztown wouldn’t exist today, at least not in its current form. Getting fired certainly didn’t feel like an opportunity at the time. But it completely changed the trajectory of my life.

There are still people making big bets on radio, from Jeff Warshaw and the Connoisseur team to people like Brad Fuhr and his team at KGAY in Palm Springs. So I guess my message is: don’t confuse change with the end. This business is going through a painful transformation. But new companies, owners, personalities and ideas will come out of it. Sometimes the thing that feels like the worst moment of your career ends up opening the door to the best thing you ever did.

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