Day 2 of the 2025 BSM Summit presented by Point to Point Marketing is once again live at the Edlis Neeson Theater in Chicago, IL. Key takeaways from this year’s sessions and speakers are being shared by Barrett Media Sports Editor John Mamola, and Barrett Media Associate Editor Derek Futterman. Check back today to catch up on anything you might’ve missed.

Jason Barrett opened up the day thanking all our fantastic sponsors who have supported the 2025 BSM Summit and all the attendees who made the trip. He then went into a discussion about sports radio getting more attention in a very crowded space. Between social media and all the other distractions including cell phones, job, families and so much more, it’s tough for content to cut through more than ever.

He discussed while sports radio stations have done a great job reacting to news, there is still work to do. Referencing US99’s morning show celebrating being named the 21st best morning show in the latest BSM Ranking, Barrett believes radio needs to be better with reactive marketing.

When discussing why sports radio station operators might be so hungry for new revenue, Barrett shared news that some of the bigger brands are simply taking events to go viral that aren’t their own events.

Brand, talent, ideas, and fans are what leads to great success when it comes to thinking what no one else ever thought and monetizing the moment. There is no reason why sports radio and sports media brands can be any different. Barrett says that local stations need to better with taking opportunities and making them your own.

Welcome to Day 2 of the 2025 BSM Summit

9:10-9:45 = The 3-Minute Switch

• John Snyder, Nielsen

John Snyder opened up the session discussing the why behind the 3-minute change with Nielsen, it really comes down to all digital because it’s in line with what is going on around us. There were a lot of instances as well where the five minute rule was simply outdated and there were instances where a listener even listening for 23 minutes could only give a station a single quarter hour.

He states the 3-minute rule overall allows a better representation of how consumers take in content. So how do you determine a winner with the new 3-minute rule? The first winner of the new rule is radio as overall cume has grown to higher levels the past three months, and listening is beginning to see year over year growth in ppm markets for the first time since 2021 coming out of COVID.

Using data from JAN/FEB of 2025 compared to JAN/FEB 2024. population updates went into effect seeing certain growth in certain demographics especially with Hispanic listening. Snyder discussed an apples to apples comparison from May of 2024 in AQH by format, and sports radio rose by more than 25%. He shared data for A18-54 in over 40 markets, and a good representation of some markets going up and some down based on a lot of different factors.

If you look at the stations by rank position last year and using A25-54 as the metric, the higher ranked stations are seeing either flat or down numbers while the mid-ranked stations are seeing more rise than any other. If your station was ranked 16-20 in the market in the A25-54 demo, according to Snyder’s data you are seeing great growth as well.

The biggest factor driving station AQH is your market daily cume, especially for the larger and higher ranked stations. The game is still the game, and daily cume is king. Even in a world where the majority of new listening is coming from existing quarter hours.

Snyder insist for programmers to look at the daily cume of the market, and the daily cume for your station. If you can drive daily cume to the station every day, he insists your numbers will go up. Every station in a market correlates similar with average qtr hour and daily cume. The goal is just to drive listeners.

The relationship between market cume and AQH is so important. Two possibilities to grow daily cume include finding new listeners in the market who didn’t think or know of you before, and bring back listeners who listen to the station yesterday according to Snyder. While daily TSL is important, you’re daily cume is so much more important.

He added if sports radio stations can attract the right amount of cume, you win. He added you can’t make sports appealing to everyone. Cume drives the Nielsen PPM system.

When asked about the headphone problem with the Nielsen, Snyder said that Nielsen did a survey to see how much listening is missing from PPM.

“It’s not a great situation, it’s not ideal,” said Snyder about the headphone situation.

When asked about how Nielsen will measure YouTube viewership for credit, Snyder wasn’t sure how to address the situation because YouTube streams are typically not encoded audio. He stated that Nielsen will need some help from third parties to get all the correct data for measurement.

Snyder said the ratings that are produced and how they are used in individual markets are two different things. Stations need to understand that trends can fluctuate based on sample size, and you can’t react to a simple survey. “A five share is the same as a four share,” said Snyder noting that advertising agencies will buy the five share instead of the four share.

When pressed on digital listening not being measured when stations have first party data that says different than Nielsen third party data. Snyder says more times than not they do match, but if they don’t it could be the sample.

When asked about radio investing in the PPM measurement for Nielsen tracking audio, what are the next things coming from Nielsen as far as measurement? Snyder said they are working on some new ideas, but he can’t comment specifically on it. Snyder says audio should be getting some sort of help from television, but it’s tough. He did say there are now some announcements coming this year.

9:45-10:30 = The Art of Interviewing

• Jason Barrett, Barrett Media

Jason Barrett held court about the art of how to conduct an interview based on his experience with John Sawatsky training, where it became a verb in the building in Bristol. The art of interviewing has flaws still, including wasted minutes and bad structure. Using Dan Patrick saying the interview quality is based on the answers you get instead of the questions you ask.

The art of crafting your interviewing comes down to an interview or a conversation. A conversation is an exchange, an interview you’re earning insight. It comes down to earning trust when it comes to moments in interviews. What are memorable in interviews are moments stemming from that trust.

Referencing press conferences and Clay Travis’ critique of what has happened with beat writers. There are two things at your disposal as the interviewer. Your question, and the ability to listen. If you have bad questions, you will get bad answers. People often forget that an interview gets something out of it you didn’t know.

Regarding the question: Open, neutral and lean. Open is your who, what, where, when, and how. Lean is short, brief and making sure that the question is simple. What’s your topic and what’s the query regarding it, that makes a great question. There are seven deadly sins when it comes to crafting how to avoid a great interview.

The first sin is not having a query. Meaning, you didn’t ask a question. Gives you a TV moment but not exactly a great answer. If the guest is simply repeating what the interviewer is saying, or the guest seems to trail into an answer that simply confirms with what you said.

The second sin is being double barreled. Multiple questions when you allow the guest to stray away from the bigger and more important question by adding an optional question for the guest to lean to the easier question.

The third sin is overloading, which is double barreled but multiple times over. Keep the questions simple and direct instead of attempting to answer the question for the guest.

The fourth sin is remarks. The interviewer feels the need to share his opinion before asking the question. This leads the guest to take the easy route to simply agree or disagree, leading to nothing being gained by the interview.

The fifth sin is closed query, which are yes or no questions. They never work, especially with athletes and coaches. The goal is to get a data from the question, not a simple word.

The sixth sin is hyperbole, when you try to paint a colorful picture. However inside of interviews, they don’t really land. For example, “They call”…. who is they?

The seventh sin is using trigger words. which are words you should avoid using to simply insult or demean your guest. But also not having the right information regarding your guest.

Overall, when you have a poor plan you will have poor execution. Having a great plan can lead to some great results. Making sure you don’t take up the time instead of leaving the guest to fill the time is key, because they are the guest.

The one thing Barrett recommends to programmers, go back to an interview and remove the answers from the guests and use that as an aircheck with your talent. Get to the point, and put the pressure on the guest to get to the point. Every interview doesn’t have to be a full segment, and don’t get into a predictable pattern.

10:30-10:45 = Connecting and Profiting From Live Events presented by MRN

• Demetri Ravanos, Barrett Media

Demetri Ravanos took to the podium and introduced a quote from Rich Greenfield about cost cutting being a great way to juice profitability, but also being a very short term strategy. Referencing Jim Henson and The Muppets, he asked if companies are willing to take a chance and do cool stuff to see if it leads to something greater.

Noting it takes a lot to get people to leave their home for an event. 85% of sports fans would rather watch a game at home on TV instead of going to a stadium. As tickets for events climb higher and higher, it’s easier for the consumer to say no. When people are watching their finances, you need to put on a product worth the price of admission.

Why can’t sports radio stations put on events with sports media figures outside of their building?

Also partnering with with local apparel companies is possible, sponsorships into aspects of the event, and a good ticket price for the average consumer.

If you can make revenue now, you will make more potentially later. Can it be successful? How do you make it bigger for next time? These are the questions you need to ask regarding putting together an event.

Try to be patient with evolution when it comes to putting on an event with an original idea. You win loyalty by creating value for people. Great memories is what attracts a bigger audience year after year.

10:55-11:35 – Afternoons in the Morning presented by Core Image Studio

• Matt Spiegel, 670 The Score
• Laurence Holmes, 670 The Score
• Marc Silverman, ESPN 1000
• John Mamola, Barrett Media

John Mamola commenced the panel by mentioning some of the legendary radio programs that have taken the airwaves in the Chicago area. With a distinctive legacy featuring accomplished hosts, he asked how important it is to keep the tradition therein. Laurence Holmes of 670 The Score mentioned that he never thought of having to be there to remain relevant, but he did talk about that in considering how people may perceive the competition, it is cool to know that they are going up against Waddle & Silvy from ESPN 1000.

“Even though it’s not necessarily competition with as much respect as I have for him and their show, I’m like, ‘Okay, what are those guys doing. How can we be competitive while also not being acrimonious?,'” Holmes explained, “and that’s how I look at it.”

Marc Silverman of ESPN 1000 added that he views the situation from the perspective of a fan getting out of work and not having any idea of what is going on. The responsibility he feels the show holds is to help people escape, keeping them informed and allowing them to laugh. As a student of the game who listened to Mike North on The Score when it first took the airwaves, he felt inspired to pursue a career in the business.

“My responsibility that I always look to is, ‘Let’s have fun,’ and if people after a long day of work or maybe even going to work for second or third-shifters, if they can say, ‘Hey, Silvy,’ or especially Waddle, ‘made me laugh today or I found out something I didn’t know,’ that’s the responsibility that I love,” Silverman explained.

Matt Spiegel of 670 The Score reflected back on some of the previous afternoon shows and averred that the daypart feels special, and it is not something he takes for granted. Afternoon drive, he explained, feels like the opportunity to express opinions in a different way. On top of that, it is essential to have thoughts and opinions that can draw audience.

Holmes started at The Score as a producer, and he conveyed how he still feels like he holds the role in having a voice in what content will be discussed. In fact, he feels it is almost maniacal and divulged that they were already at 30 texts before their afternoon show. With everything they are consuming, he is trying not to miss anything and watching games, and they work on Google Docs to see where everyone is with the show.

“That level of preparation, you want to bring something to the table, and the way that our show is set up, I think, is really good, and I wasn’t used to it,” Holmes said. “It took some adjustment to me the way that they had it set up before I moved into the afternoon show, and I had never really thought about it.”

Silverman spoke about how he still wonders if they are doing the show correctly after being on the program for the last 18 years. Rather than doing the show beforehand, he wants to save the content, but he has also learned that people come in with some anxiety through prepping and that the program will loosen everyone up. The way he has evolved as well has been completely different despite producing and reporting, but he expressed how he has not lost what he did before and can approach the show from various prespectives.

Spiegel wondered if Silverman trusted himself more now and thusly would not have to do as much beforehand. Holmes also discussed institutional knowledge and an awareness of what is going on through Chicago, allowing them to recall all of the things taking place. When it comes to something specific though, they are able to effectively talk about it.

“You’re better off just starting with what’s in front of you because the more time that you spend trying to live or re-live stuff that’s already gone on is time that you’re wasting on coming up with critical thinking or really sharp opinions on what’s right in front of you,” Holmes said.

Mamola asked about how the group goes about gleaning feedback from management and being aware that the show is clicking and moving in the right direction. Spiegel voiced that you have to trust yourself, the group and the closest people who matter. Over the years, he has garnered some listeners who have become friends and vice-versa, feedback from whom he values. The danger with ratings, however, is that the ratings can sometimes contrast from the qualitative opinions surrounding the quality of the show.

“I think trusting yourself and really examining and making sure your colleagues and you are really tight and trusting that and bosses,” Spiegel said. “All bosses I’ve ever had by the way – great instincts, terrific instincts.”

Silverman explained that he still gets in his head sometimes, remembering that he will drive home and occasionally be mad at himself. There was a recent show where he did not like the way they started, and he realized that they needed to loosen up and proceeded to have the best segment of the day.

“I think we hear from friends, we talk to fans and all three of us have always engaged on social media, so I think that can be good and bad, but it’s still a work in progress,” Silverman said.

Holmes qualified his thoughts on callers by explaining that they were more radical than most. There are times where he feels they need to be more primary, but conversely, while working as a producer, there was an abdication from hosts of doing phone topics. Although he is more adverse to it than other hosts, he admits that there are certain days where it should be a big part of what they are doing, such as the Monday following Chicago Bears football games.

“The idea of the same caller saying the same thing to try to elicit responses from hosts, I don’t think that that’s particularly good radio,” Holmes added, referencing how everyone has had people who frequently phone the show.

Spiegel explained that “Calls beget calls,” essentially bringing a tension through the portrayal of tangible verve and differing opinions. From the perspective of him as a host, he tries to have a balance with it, but he also hosts a weekend show featuring regular voices that ultimately contribute to the total content. Silverman added that Mike Thomas helped him evolve in taking calls, identifying when listeners were funny and encouraging him to dig deeper in the dialogue.

Mamola talked about how people feel differently about the value of using social media. While there is no preset book to this, he always encouraged his talent to get out there in the right manner. When asking about the balance and how to advise those who are hesitancy, Holmes spoke about how he is doing less stuff on X and more on Instagram.

“If there are things that I want to watch – if I just want to be a voyeur – I think that is where the value is, and you do have good experiences and, I would say, most of the experiences are good where people are trying to engage with you or engage with your show, but it’s also like having another job on top of the other jobs that you have as you’re preparing for your show. That life and what it is that you’re doing online, like your life online as it connects to the show, I’ve been thinking about what Wright Thompson said about Twitter that, ‘Twitter will only get you fired.'”

Holmes acknowledged that it is difficult to navigate the platform, wondering if it is an extension of the brand or if talent should feel obligated in this regard. He is not sure he has the answer to it but has been thinking about these questions. Holmes proceeded to convey that if a station is hinting that one should be on social media, they have a responsibility, in certain cases, to protect them.

“I laughed at ‘Protect us from ourselves’ because I can relate,” Spiegel said. “It’s such a personal thing because I have deleted and reinstalled Twitter on my phone I suppose 30 times, 40 times, 50 times in my life. Right now it’s not installed, but I can just go to Chrome and do it there.”

Holmes also feels that it is incumbent on programmers to consider what is happening with their talent on social media. Moreover, he explained that they need to be trained on it and the impact it has on their employees, avouching how talent receive real-time evaluation in what they are doing. After he was giving a recent opinion on Aaron Rodgers, someone reached out and said that he should be shot for his opinion, and the user doubled down when Holmes asked if he genuinely meant that.

Silverman explained that his philosophy is to build his show through a grassroots approach, but reading his mentions began to affect his mental health. One day, he decided to text ESPN host Mike Greenberg to ask what he did with the mentions.

“He responded, ‘Why are you reading your mentions?,’ and I think that’s easier for a lot of people than it is maybe for me,” Silverman said. “I came up through a time when Twitter was first invented…. and so this is the way I grow my brand. I like to be the most approachable host in the city. You can get me on Twitter, you can get me in sporting events. Talk to me, I want to make you feel like you’re a part, but now it’s gone down this road where I think we’ve all seen it gone down.”

Holmes mentioned how he was pissed off about how The Score was treated in the cluster, but he has seen the level of respect that used to go to news/talk stations back then is not being reciprocated to sports stations. In addition, he spoke about how sports stations are keeping clusters together around the country and that they are still being viewed as operating in the proverbial toy store per se.

“There needs to be a different way and a different tone in which sports radio is treated because sports radio is keeping the f****g lights on right now,” Holmes said.

11:35-12:10 – The Ups and Downs of Managing presented by Backbone Broadcast

• Ozzie Guillen, CHSN Chicago White Sox Analyst

Jason Barrett reminisced on producing the Dan Patrick Show in 2005 when the Chicago White Sox won the World Series over the Houston Astros. Barrett outlined how many people at the conference are running brands and trying to ensure they operate a winning organization that makes money. Ozzie Guillen discussed how winning organizations have scouts who are in charge to bring talent, coaching who prepares the prospects and possessing a winning attitude. Furthermore, he articulated how it is important to be on the same page within the organization.

“To build an organization, you have to suffer, No. 1,” Guillen said. “You have to suffer because nobody can be good from the beginning, and hopefully you can stay the longest you can with a winning situation and compete every year.”

Guillen does not like the word “rebuilding” and instead thinks about “building a new generation,” and he also mentioned how teams sometimes suffer in the near-term with the intent to ameliorate the product for the future. Losing games in any sport can drive people crazy, he said, but staying with the plan can hopefully engender more auspicious outcomes.

Barrett asked Guillen to outline the differences between organizations that are winning and struggling, specifically mentioning how media coverage differed in this regard. Guillen also conveyed that he said the same things but that they were being looked at differently amid the on-field struggles. Additionally, he voiced how important is it for people to play hard, pointing out how they get paid to do as such.

Guillen pointed out how when the White Sox won in 2005, there was no one who picked them to become World Series champions and that there were a lot of “if” factors. From the first day though, he had a spring training meeting and that the ballclub remained consistent for the entire season.

“People think winning the World Series is easy,” Guillen said. “People think having a winning organization for long is easy. It’s not easy.”

Guillen noted that you need to treat your athletes with protection from the media, but do it the right way. It’s not about being liked, it’s about getting the job done.

Guillen joked how he enjoys getting paid to talk s**t for a living now compared to managing. He notes he doesn’t care about himself, he cares more about others. It’ easier to manage a team with no title when you manage a team that has a title.

Guillen insists he’s always been the same guy no matter if he was a player or a manager. There is no expectation because he’s always been the same. It’s easier to forget stuff than remember he notes. You only remember the lessons you are taught throughout time. Guillen says he loves his job, and can control his language when the light is on.

Guillen says working in sports media is the toughest job because it’s filled with constant feedback. He says about 90% of the sports media love him, but there is a new appreciation he has for people in the sports media profession on how many work so hard to sound informed on the game.

When it comes to what a manager wants from the media, Guillen wants honesty. He said that Chicago media is weak right now because of the level of questions. His rule for the clubhouse was for players to speak to the media first before showering because players tend to hide. He understood that the media has a job to do too.

It’s simple, you want the media to talk good about you, play good. Speak the truth, and you’ll speak fast. The power of the microphone is still paramount.

12:10-12:55 – The 2025 Premiere Networks Awards Ceremony

• Mark Chernoff Award: Jeff Catlin, Sports Radio 96.7/1310 The Ticket
• The Champion’s Award: Danny Parkins, FS1/670 The Score
• The Jeff Smulyan Award: Bruce Gilbert, Cumulus Media/Westwood One
• The Lifetime Achievement Award: Mike North, ESPN 1000

Mark Chernoff sent in a video message introducing Jeff Catlin as the winner of the Mark Chernoff Award.

Catlin was appreciative of being the recipient of the award, and said the BSM Summit has been inspiring these last two days. He will be taking a ton of notes back to The Ticket. He noted the support of his upper management staff for their support and his wife Laura for being there for the whole ride.

Catlin noted he was shocked when he got the call that he won. He said PDs are blessed to get the opportunity to create the radio station that they feel they want to hear. He listed the long list of accolades that The Ticket have gained, and treated this award as a ‘we’ award. He said listeners don’t tune in because of the PD, but they will tune out if the station is not great. The job is supposed to be fun, and this BSM Summit has been a great reminder of this.

He says this award means so much because it’s given by those who understand the role.

Danny Parkins of FS1 Breakfast Ball was awarded the Champion’s Award.

On behalf of Parkins, Barrett Media will donate 1000.00 in his honor to Brain Up. Parkins thanked Jason Barrett for the donation and then moved into his thanks for 670 The Score accepting him to come back this year to raise more money for cancer research. He discussed the transition from The Score to FS1 and how welcoming the Audacy team has been for him to return to the city for the event.

He then encouraged all sports radio stations to put together a radio-thon for causes as he considers radio a public-trust. Because he feels all it takes is an idea and handshakes through relationships which all stations have. Making a difference in your communities will help your community understand the impact you have. He says the industry needs to do more good because it’s all about doing the good for the community.

Bruce Gilbert is the 2025 recipient of the Jeff Smulyan Award.

Gilbert appreciated his brother providing the voice over for the video package that was presented before receiving the award. He shared some photos of his family and how being raised by his parents in the mid west was so valuable. Showing some photos of his extended family, he was over appreciative for the moment to share these family moments with the crowd.

He then showed four slides of names of people wanted to thank, but the people in red on those slides allowing him an opportunity to mess up and be great. He is eternally grateful to be honored with the award being in the same breath with Kraig Kitchin, Dan Mason, Traug Keller, Julie Talbott, and Steve Cohen.

The ceremony concluded with Chicago sports radio legend Mike North taking the stage. North extended his appreciation to Barrett Media for bestowing him with this year’s honor. He shared how Jason Barrett called him, and upon receiving the call, reminded JB that his face was not on the poster, as he hadn’t been invited to participate. Barrett then explained ‘that’s what I want to talk to you about’, and proceeded to inform North he had been chosen as this year’s recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award, becoming the 4th ever to win it. The gesture left North speechless.

Mike then proceeded to share a story of how he got his break into the business, relayed his appreciation to all who gave him an opportunity, recognized many who he previously worked with and helped him deliver great content, and talked about the early days of The Score.

Before wrapping up, North singled out his wife BeBe and the important impact she’s had on his life both personally and professionally. He then thanked everyone for coming, and reminded them he’s got more gas left in the tank.

Another One Bites The Dust

Jason Barrett puts a bow on the show, thanking everyone who graced the stage over the 13-hour event. JB also extended his appreciation to the Summit’s 19 partners, the Barrett Media staff and on-site support crew, the MCA’s Edlis Neeson Theater team, and plugs the poll question on BSMSummit.com asking attendees where they’d like to see the Summit originate from in 2026. The options are New York City, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and Dallas.