2026 Barrett Media Audio Summit Presented by Point to Point Marketing Day 3 Recap

The Consultant Conversation

Fred Jaobs (Jacobs Media)
Mike McVay (McVay Media)
Moderatir: Buss Knight (Taking a walk)

The Consultants Conversation at the first Barrett Media Music Radio Conference focused on the current state of radio, the pressure facing the business, and what operators, programmers, talent, and CEOs need to do differently as the industry continues to evolve.

The discussion opened with the acknowledgment that radio, like every business, is changing. New jobs are being created while other jobs are disappearing, and nobody wants to see talented people lose work. A major force behind that disruption is AI. The panel recognized that AI is already affecting content creation, social media, imaging, music discovery, and audience behavior. At the same time, the speakers made a distinction between using AI as a tool and using it as a replacement for talent. The smart approach, they argued, is to use AI to make shows better, improve preparation, gather information faster, and help smaller stations compete with larger operators. The dangerous approach is using AI to copy voices and eliminate human talent.

A central theme was that the world does not need more content. It needs more community. Radio now competes in an environment filled with podcasts, streaming, YouTube, social video, Reels, and endless short-form content. That makes standing out harder than ever. The panel stressed that success can no longer be defined only by Nielsen ratings. Video views, downloads, social engagement, community interaction, live events, and relationships with advertisers all matter. As AI grows, authentic human connection becomes even more valuable.

Fred Jacobs described the industry as being at a precarious point. He argued that many of the rules that guided radio for decades are breaking down. It is not just the organizational chart that needs to be rethought; almost everything about the business needs to be reconsidered. He pointed to years of short-term, quarter-by-quarter thinking as one reason the industry is now struggling to invest properly in research, talent, and innovation. He also said radio is paying the price for decades of ignoring younger demographics, especially in the years following the Telecommunications Act of 1996.

Mike McVay offered a more optimistic but still realistic view. He said the radio business still has the potential to be profitable, especially when stations are not buried under debt. He used examples of stations and companies that generate strong cash flow when they are locally engaged and financially healthy. However, he also acknowledged that the industry may have to go through more pain before it gets better. That pain includes layoffs and the “human carnage” already being seen across the business.

Both Jacobs and McVay agreed that the future is multiplatform. Radio can no longer think of itself as only over-the-air broadcasting. It must be present on apps, social media, streaming, video, podcasts, newsletters, live events, and wherever audiences spend time. McVay said radio is a delivery system, but the real business is talent, content, and connection. A successful show today has to be heard, seen, shared, clipped, streamed, and experienced in person.

The panel also discussed what they would build if they were handed the keys to a new station or audio brand. Jacobs said he might not start with a radio station at all. He might start with YouTube or another platform where an audience can be built and monetized directly. He emphasized the importance of building a brand that lasts, not a short-term “Roman candle” format that burns bright and disappears. He also questioned whether music alone is enough anymore, given how commoditized music has become through streaming platforms.

McVay pointed to a successful sports station in a top-10 market as an example of what strong local engagement can still look like. The station has salespeople, promotions staff, social media leadership, digital sales, remotes, live personalities, and a strong app audience. Its owner is deeply connected to the business community. The point was that radio can still thrive when it is everywhere and when it is deeply involved in the community.

The speakers also contrasted large-scale operators with independent or local owners. Large companies such as iHeart, Audacy, and Cumulus need scale, and that often leads to nationalization, syndication, and hubbing. That model may make business sense, but it creates job losses and can weaken local connection. Independent owners, especially outside the top 20 markets, may have an advantage because they can be more visible, more local, and more connected. McVay used the example of mobile radio studios in Ireland that traveled from community to community, arguing that American broadcasters could build stronger brands by committing to that kind of street-level presence.

Another major point was the need for “strategic rule-breaking.” Jacobs said the old programming model of conducting a music test, drawing a line at 250 titles, and loading songs into a scheduling system is not enough anymore. He argued that PPM itself is not the problem, but the way radio interpreted PPM caused damage. In the early PPM era, some stations stopped identifying themselves clearly, assuming listeners would just find them. That thinking weakened branding and connection.

McVay agreed that music still matters, but said programmers must understand how people actually listen today. With some research showing very limited weekly listening time, it is unrealistic to assume listeners hear every song in the way programmers imagine. Stations need the big hits, but they also need “chocolate chips” — special songs, surprises, or moments that give the brand texture and personality.

Talent was repeatedly identified as the most important differentiator. McVay said he could copy a station’s music, marketing, and contests, but he cannot copy air talent that has a real relationship with the audience. The panel argued that personality is what protects a brand. That personality can be local, national, or even voice-tracked if the prep and connection are strong. The key is whether the talent creates something distinctive and meaningful.

The conversation also addressed the talent pipeline. Jacobs said radio has no real bench anymore. In the past, stations could find rising talent in smaller markets, but many of those stations now run syndicated programming. He sees college radio as one of the best remaining places to find young, radio-oriented people with fresh perspectives. McVay added that young people are still creating; they are just doing it through podcasts, TikTok, fake online radio stations, and social platforms. The bigger problem is compensation. He argued that radio has eliminated much of its middle class, with some people making wages comparable to retail or food-service jobs but with weaker benefits.

Finally, the panel discussed what CEOs need to understand. Jacobs said CEOs must understand every platform they expect their companies to use. It is not enough to order a podcast division, newsletter strategy, or digital product without understanding how that content is made, how long it takes to develop, and how it should be sold. McVay praised leaders who understand programming, content, technology, and local execution. The best CEOs surround themselves with people who know the work and give them room to evolve, while still holding ideas accountable financially.

The panel closed on a sober but hopeful note. The industry is clearly facing painful change, layoffs, debt, technological disruption, and audience fragmentation. But the speakers also believe radio is capable of better work. The path forward is not more sameness. It is stronger talent, smarter use of AI, better community connection, multiplatform distribution, strategic risk-taking, and leadership that understands how content is actually created.

The State of Audio Measurement

Moderator: Rob Miller (WNEW-FM)
Rich Tunkel: (Nielsen)
John Rosso: (Triton Digital)
Cameron Hendrix: (Magellan AI)

he discussion centered on how audio measurement is evolving across radio, streaming, and podcasting, and whether the industry is moving fast enough to satisfy advertisers who increasingly want proof of business outcomes, not just audience estimates.

The panelists generally gave the current state of audio measurement a B or B-minus. The reason was not that measurement is broken, but that audio is fragmented. Broadcast radio, podcasting, streaming audio, and video all operate with different measurement systems, different standards, and different expectations from advertisers. Digital audio has more native delivery and attribution data, while broadcast is still working to become more measurable in the same way digital channels are.

A major theme was that advertisers are no longer satisfied with reach, frequency, impressions, or rankers alone. They want to know whether campaigns drove sales, foot traffic, web searches, leads, or other outcomes. The panel repeatedly came back to the idea that outcome measurement is becoming the real report card for audio.

Rich Tunkel addressed Nielsen’s diary-market measurement and explained why Nielsen requested a pause in MRC accreditation for diary markets. His point was that the audit process is backward-looking and resource-intensive, while Nielsen needs room to innovate faster. Nielsen is testing a new, less burdensome way to collect diary-market listening data, alongside traditional paper diaries and the newer mobile M-Survey. The goal is to make it easier for people to participate and to better capture listening from harder-to-reach demographics.

There was also a discussion about Nielsen’s shift from the five-minute rule to the three-minute rule in PPM markets. Rich said the change helped capture more listening occasions, especially shorter listening sessions that reflect today’s media habits. He said it brought in more listening and was fairly equitable across formats, with Spanish-language formats seeing some of the larger gains. However, he also said he had hoped radio programmers would experiment more with the added flexibility, especially around stopset placement. Instead, many stations still cluster commercial breaks around the old quarter-hour habits.

One of the most important programmer-facing points was about ratings compression. Rich explained that in an average quarter hour, only about 40 to 50 people out of every 1,000 may be listening to radio at that exact moment. When that listening is divided across a large number of stations, especially in a market like New York, it creates a crowded ranker with a lot of stations bunched closely together. That also explains why one panelist can seem to have such a large impact, especially in younger demos.

The panel addressed whether younger-skewing formats are being undercounted. Rich pushed back on the idea that younger listeners are simply missing from the data, saying Nielsen uses weighting to prevent older listeners from being overrepresented and younger listeners from being underrepresented. But he acknowledged the real frustration: younger demos are harder to recruit, and because fewer 18-34s are listening in any given quarter hour, each active panelist can carry more influence. So the issue may not be undercounting as much as volatility and stability.

AI came up as another major topic. The panelists were careful to distinguish between using AI to improve analysis and using AI to create audience estimates. Nielsen said it does not use AI to inform its audience estimates. Instead, AI is used internally to improve processes and analyze data more efficiently. Magellan AI said its technology is used to identify ads in podcasts and audio streams, but the measurement still has to be grounded in real advertiser data, such as purchases, order IDs, or conversions.

A strong point from the conversation was that AI should not invent better-looking numbers. Its value is in helping humans make sense of the firehose of data. One example was using AI to turn complicated campaign performance data into a short, understandable narrative for a seller to share with a client. A campaign may not show a dramatic “hockey stick” increase, but a 3% lift in sales, foot traffic, or search activity can still be meaningful. AI can help explain that.

The panel also discussed the need to bring podcasting further upstream in the media planning process. Nielsen is working to integrate first-party podcast data into Nielsen Media Impact, the planning tool used by advertisers and agencies. The argument was that podcasting cannot grow simply by fighting for a small piece of the existing audio budget. To grow meaningfully, it has to appear in the planning systems where agencies make allocation decisions and where media channels compete for budget.

There was also a pushback against treating “audio” as one single bucket. Podcasting, streaming, and broadcast radio can each reach different audiences and play different roles in a media plan. Cameron noted that advertisers sometimes think they have checked the audio box if they buy one form of audio, but the overlap between podcast and streaming audiences may be smaller than expected. The takeaway was that buying one part of audio does not mean an advertiser has bought all of audio.

The final portion focused on the long-running debate over advertiser demos, especially whether radio should move from 25-54 to 25-64. Rich said the demos are available in the tools, but advertisers are usually the ones setting the age target. The panel agreed that radio has a strong case to make for older, affluent consumers with disposable income. John made the point that radio has been having this same argument for more than 30 years.

The strongest argument for expanding the demo was tied to outcomes. If a 55-year-old buys a Jeep, the car dealer does not discount that sale because the buyer is outside 25-54. A buyer is a buyer. That may be where radio has its best opportunity: instead of only fighting over age cells, the industry can prove that its audience actually buys things.

Overall, the panel painted audio measurement as a system in transition. Radio, podcasting, and streaming are all being pushed toward the same reality: advertisers want proof. Reach still matters, demos still matter, and audience estimates still matter, but the future of audio measurement will be about connecting listening and ad exposure to actual business results.

Act Like a Talent, Think Like An Owner

Murphy Sam & Jodi (Premier Networks)

The Murphy, Sam & Jody session was less a traditional programming panel and more a business lesson for radio talent. The central idea was that their success did not come only from chemistry, likability, and relatable content, although all of that clearly matters. Their growth came from learning to treat the show as a company, not simply a daily performance.

Jason Barrett introduced them by saying he wanted them involved because of their chemistry, energy, relatability, and likability. But he also made the point that their story goes beyond being a successful radio show. They built a business, learned how to distribute it, and grew it into syndication in a way that other talent in the room should study.

Murphy, Sam, and Jody opened by saying the session would not be a deep dive into programming best practices. Instead, they wanted to talk about what they learned the hard way over 25 years of syndication. Their four main lessons were: be your own CEO, understand that you serve more than one audience, check your ego, and “keep the wow.”

The first major theme was the need for a mindset change. Jody said that when she started, she mostly wanted to focus on the audience and the content. That was her natural lane. Murphy, however, pushed the group to think like business owners. He helped them understand that they could not just show up, do the show, and wait for the industry to take care of everything else. They had to operate like a business.

Murphy explained that being a CEO means focusing on the outcome and owning all the responsibilities around the show, even the boring ones. That includes affiliate communication, technical delivery, sales support, brand consistency, market research, contracts, and making sure the show fulfills every promise it makes. He said talent can’t always do everything themselves, especially as they grow, but they do have to own the responsibility.

They also talked about serving three different audiences. The first audience is, of course, the listener. Jody said she does not think of listeners only as a target demo or profile. She thinks of them as people she is in a relationship with. She talked about how listeners interact with them online, invite them into their lives, and feel personally connected to the show. That relationship, she argued, is still the most powerful thing radio talent can create.

But the second audience is advertisers. Murphy and Jody made the point that sales can no longer be treated as someone else’s problem. When they launch in a new market, they do not only meet with the PD or OM. They also meet with the general sales manager, sales team, and sometimes clients. They tell affiliates to treat them as if they are “down the hall.” They give sales managers, advertisers, and affiliates their cell phone numbers. Jody said she once worried that clients might abuse that access, but they generally do not. Instead, it helps build trust.

A key moment came when someone told Jody that she needed sales managers walking into the GM or market president’s office and fighting for the show, saying, “I can sell this.” That changed how she viewed the role of talent. If the sales team believes in the show and knows the talent is responsive, they become internal advocates. That is critical for syndicated talent.

The third audience is the affiliate itself. Murphy, Sam, and Jody emphasized that every affiliate is, in some way, a boss. As they joked, when you are on nearly 90 stations, you have about 90 bosses. That means being available, flexible, and responsive. They told a story about being ready to leave for Christmas vacation when an AE from an affiliate asked them to cut a spot for a client. The client wanted all three of them on the spot, the copy was long, and the timing was terrible. But they did it anyway because the affiliate had sold the client on them. Their attitude was that the job is not just to be talent, but to deliver when someone in a local market has put their credibility on the line.

The “check your ego” section focused on rejection, flexibility, and not taking business decisions personally. Sam talked about the reality that stations will drop the show, deals will fall apart, and markets will change. Sometimes there is something to learn from the loss. Other times, the decision may be about money, format changes, or local strategy. Murphy said the challenge is to separate the facts from the feelings. Talent naturally takes rejection personally because the product is their personality, voice, and life. But if every loss becomes emotional, it becomes harder to grow.

They also talked about flexibility. If a station cannot carry them in mornings anymore, maybe there is an afternoon solution, a weekend version, or some other content offering. Murphy said the answer should not automatically be “no.” It should be, “How can we approach this?” That mindset keeps doors open.

One of the strongest business stories came from 2009, when the economy tanked. They had been self-syndicating for several years when several affiliates suddenly said they could no longer pay cash and needed to switch to barter. The problem was that Murphy, Sam, and Jody did not have a barter option. At first, they had to figure it out without letting the stations see the panic behind the scenes. They essentially said yes, then worked to solve it. They eventually built a barter model and later partnered with companies like Skyview Networks and Premiere Networks. Murphy said the important part was that the client-facing side remained steady. The affiliates did not need to see the pain and confusion behind the curtain. The show had promised to be a solution, and they had to keep acting like one.

They also talked about the importance of intellectual property. During the old Clear Channel days, after being turned down for another salary increase, they asked if they could own the intellectual property of the show. Mark Chase and Brad Harden agreed, and that decision changed everything. It allowed them to syndicate beyond iHeart. Murphy said that moment gave them freedom, but also responsibility. They had to manage the privilege carefully and avoid abusing the company that had allowed them to own the show.

Murphy said that move is the reason they are on 87 stations today. It was not because anyone simply handed them a platform. At the time, they were too small and boutique for major networks to sell nationally. But owning the IP gave them the ability to start building. They later had to operate like “Switzerland,” meaning they could not give iHeart automatic preference, even though that was where the opportunity began. They had to treat all partners and affiliates fairly.

The session also touched on protecting what you build. Jody’s phrase “Keep the Wow” began as a personal motto about holding onto good moments and letting losses go. Murphy, thinking like a businessman, protected it with a service mark. They now use it as part of the brand and even sell merchandise connected to it. That illustrated the larger point: if talent creates something valuable, they should protect it.

The emotional heart of the session was “Keep the Wow.” Jody said talent and programmers are being asked to do more than ever. They may have to be the CEO, HR department, marketing department, sales department, engineer, IT person, billing department, and contract writer. But amid all that, she reminded the room that talent is still the “wow” of the business. Talent is the heartbeat, the touchstone, and the reason listeners form an emotional bond.

In the Q&A, someone asked what sitcom best represented their show. They said “Friends” because of the ensemble dynamic. Murphy is the straight man and the steady center. Jody is the heart. Sam is the smartass, cynic, and color. They stressed that these are not fake characters. They are real versions of who they are. Their marriages, divorces, kids, sobriety, family lives, flaws, and personal stories all become part of the show.

The final message was that if they could do it, others can too. But the key is running the show like a business while never losing the human connection that made the show worth building in the first place. Murphy, Sam, and Jody’s story is not just about syndication. It is about ownership, humility, service, adaptability, and knowing that talent still matters — but talent has to think bigger than the studio.

Appetite For Disruption

• James Kurdziel (Cumulus Media)
• Frank Kramer (95.5 KLOS)
• Justin Johnson (98 Rock)
• Chris Lloyd (102.5 WBAB)
• Moderator: David Hill (Barrett Media)

David Hill opened up the line of questioning talking about AI and how it’s beginning to take over the world of rock radio. James Kurdziel says he considers AI a tool much like technology when he first began in radio. Johnson built on those comments by saying it’s used more for the day to day of consolidating the busy work of the role. Lloyd believes the AI is more about how humans choose to use it. There’s plenty of ways to continue.

Kramer however said the technology is scary for him. Instead of the technology being so open, it needs some more dedication and oversight by human beings. There’s little oversight which leads to concerns about how the technology could actually be beneficial over intrusive to the business of the industry.

When asked about the backlash from the consumer in their individual markets, Kurdziel believes that the audience already believes that radio is already run by AI. It’s the job of the station and the talent to now prove their not artificially enhanced. Kramer mentioned the rise in AI artists in both listening and popularity.

Hill then shifted to the challenge for any brand. Reaching new listeners. Kurdziel says there’s plenty of mistakes being made by many stations. He says the goal of Q101 isn’t to attach themselves to 24 year old’s, but more 40 year old’s. It’s more about reaching listeners who loved the format, left it with time, and now want to re-live the fun times of what those younger experiences brought.

Lloyd then referenced the different type of audiences, all earned one by one. It comes down to working within your own communities, and connecting with people on a more personal level. Johnson says that success all comes down to talent. Getting your talent in front of as many different people and platforms as possible. However, Kramer says being available on every platform is not exactly a good strategy. For him, it’s all about driving people back to the radio show. Therefore, he doesn’t give away everything on every platform. He wants to ensure that people understand the radio show is paramount, and the bigger party can be found there.

When it comes to corporate influence in how playlists are curated, Kurdziel admits that hits in every format are undeniable. However, where the nuance comes is in market to market. Local bands and sounds matter most with local audiences. He credited Cumulus Media of allowing station management to have more control over their playlists than ever before. it’s about winning, that’s it. While not denying that corporate control still somewhat exists, it’s not as prevalent as you may think.

Lloyd echoed those statements. Hits are hits, and other songs are not just hits. It’s all about getting the audience involved and as much research as possible to make the decisions for your individual markets. Johnson revealed that every active rock station’s playlists are about 80% the same, the rest is just more gut decisions based on the research you have. He cherishes the freedom in his role with 98 Rock, but he does miss the discussions with fellow programmers about strategy on playlists.

Kramer however doesn’t play any music to his show on 95.5 KLOS, and wouldn’t have it any other way. Have the morning show mixed in with the music, not the other way around.

When it comes to morning shows around the country and the balance of music in morning shows, it’s a heated debate. Johnson said it’s all about content. As long as the content is there, allow the talent in the morning show talent to determine if they need the music to add to the content of the show. If it’s a personality driven show, let the personality drive it. Lloyd says there’s not a one size fits all with every morning show on every station.

When it comes to what makes their individual brand special, Kurdziel says in Chicago, Q101 is cool. It’s had that cool factor for years before he arrived, and the branding is undeniable around the city. Lloyd spoke about WBAB and it’s heritage brand in Long Island, NY. It comes down to the people of the station that continue to build upon the standard set many years ago. Johnson echoed the same about 98 Rock in Baltimore. However, he says that the music isn’t the only thing driving the success of the brand today. It has play by play among other items on the brand to reenforce that heritage in the Baltimore market. Kramer talked about the “Rainbow Racetrack” of 95.5 KLOS and the talent that have been legendary in that market for many years. However, it also comes down to rewarding the listener too by providing them access to experiences that they will never forget.

However, re-invention is key to remaining relevant for success. Kurdziel says it comes down to try, fail and then find success. But it’s all about continuing to try. Also, people who understand what works and what doesn’t as time moves on is vital to remaining ahead of the game. Lloyd agreed saying that the goal always has to be about stepping on the gas no matter how often you fail. Johnson said taking chances is the only way to find success. There shouldn’t be a fear of being fired every time you have a decision to make.

To wrap up, David Hill asked everyone on the panel about what was their biggest failure in radio. Kurdziel says he’s currently living in his own personal failure. Working with different playlists, jocks talking in different parts every single day. It’s more about finding out what works, and then building off that. That leads to a lot of excitement about where the future could lead. For Lloyd, it’s about building his team during his first term as a program director and a giveaway for a Harley Davidson where he lost all the entry forms for everyone who submitted. What he learned is be more humble and work with your people on many things.

Johnson referenced his time working for iHeartMedia at WEBN where there was a lot of cooks in the kitchen. He took every word from those cooks as gospel, and never used his own gut instinct on things. Kramer said it came down for him where he didn’t know who the clients were on the radio station he represented. So, when doing a segment on his program, not knowing that the topic of the conversation was an advertiser on the radio station.

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