Day 1 of the 2025 BSM Summit presented by Point to Point Marketing is taking place inside the Edlis Neeson Theater in Chicago, IL. Key takeaways from this year’s sessions and speakers are being passed along by Barrett Media Sports Editor John Mamola, and Barrett Media Associate Editor Derek Futterman. Check back throughout the day to find out what you’ve missed.
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Welcome to the 2025 BSM Summit
Barrett Media CEO Jason Barrett kicks things off, welcoming attendees to Chicago. After promoting the speakers and thanking the sponsors, Barrett shares details for Point to Point Marketing’s $25K Audience Development Campaign giveaway later this afternoon. JB then discusses the growth of the Summit since 2018, sharing a tongue-in-cheek explanation of how the premiere sports media conference has landed in dance studios, the home for the Grammy’s, and now, a museum of art.
Barrett then shifted to his opening message, explaining how studying the past allows broadcasters to get a better feel for the future.
Referencing how many have been predicting the death of the industry, Barrett pointed out examples how those have predicted the funeral for too long yet the industry is still here. He pointed out how the impact of AI will be and is a conversation piece currently that the industry has to address sooner than later. Barrett pointed out that revenue has dipped since 2005 from roughly $25 billion dollar industry to a $12 billion dollar industry, hoping to point out how radio brands can reach for the levels of advertising dollars of a Spotify for instance.
Pointing out the success story of the Savannah Bananas and how they’ve risen from a local success story from Georgia into a national brand with the eyes of a nation on that. Barrett then used the example of the Bananas to transition into The Programmer’s Panel.
9:10-9:45 = The Programmer’s Road Map presented by Westwood One
- Rod Lakin, Sports Radio 94.1 WIP
- Scott Shapiro, Fox Sports Radio
- Mitch Rosen, 670 The Score
- Jeff Catlin, Sports Radio 96.7/1310 The Ticket
Jason Barrett opened up the panel regarding change on a radio brand asking 670 The Score’s Mitch Rosen about the recent changes on the radio station.
Rosen noted the changes of Danny Parkins coming to The Score and now leaving The Score for FS1’s Breakfast Ball. He noted that he enjoys a challenge, and then referenced the dismissal of Dan Bernstein. While he said the situation was unfortunate, but at the end of the day The Score is a brand that has been around for 32 years and believed in the strength to the brand to assist the personalities be great.
Barrett then turned to Rod Lakin of 94WIP discussing his changes over his time in Philadelphia regarding Angelo Cataldi leaving morning drive and the changes that happened to the lineup with the change in mornings. He discussed the elevation of Spike Eskin to return to the 94WIP lineup, and the successes that have happened since that.
Jeff Catlin then discussed the changes that he has made to The Ticket in Dallas over the last 30 years with very little change at first, but a number of changes with what is best for The Ticket in mind. He noted that he had to make the changes for what was best for the station moving forward.
Scott Shapiro, who oversees Fox Sports Radio, has a number of changes with Colin Cowherd coming to Chicago and Dan Patrick announcing his retirement. Barrett asked about when the process starts about addressing change, to which Shapiro noted that Dan Patrick retiring did sound like a shock. Shapiro has telegraphed his retirement and made no secret about it, but admits “those are big shoes to fill” and aim to make affiliates with the next person to fill that daypart.
Barrett asked Mitch Rosen, who cherishes having local people be the local voices on Chicago sports, says it very important to have someone who knows the history of the market. “I’m not sure you can pick someone out of Omaha, and give them a prime time day part,” noted Rosen. He says it’s very important for The Score brand.
Catlin says it would also be very difficult to hire a talent from outside the building noting that The Ticket has a “clubhouse” vibe with the audience. “Texas, love it or hate, but Texas has a lot of ownership to it,” Catlin noted about looking at future talent for the radio brand.
When asking Shapiro about the recruitment process for syndication and how he asked about contractual flexibility with talent, he noted that IHeart and Fox Sports Radio cannot be “pigeon holed” on approach and Q-rating is vital for who they recruit. The talent q-rating is not only important to the audience but also important to the sales staff in New York, it has to make sense for margins and quality of the network for affiliates.
Lakin agreed saying programmers need to be open to anything when it comes to bringing in talent that want to do something on their own as well. He then discussed the he feels different from Rosen and Catlin in that he doesn’t feel that talent absolutely have to be from the city they would be hired for. He approaches just finding the right talent for the right fit.
Regarding the new 3-minute rule from Nielsen being in play since January, Barrett has seen some trends with the new measurement. Asking Rosen his opinion on the new rule, he noted that The Score lives in the TSL world with play-by-play where The Score hasn’t seen a true effect as of yet from the 3-minute rule. Lakin noted he doesn’t know too much about it as of yet, but has some general skepticism about the rule because different markets have different make ups for their stations.
Catlin says he’s always approached his talent with full transparency with the ratings, treating it like “the station’s report card.” He said programmers shouldn’t be making any changes from 1-2-3 months, but said he hasn’t seen anything as of yet with the new 3-minute rule. Catlin did say a lot of ratings is driven more from big stories in individual markets, so he’s taking it all with a grain of salt.
Shapiro from a syndication approach was “ecstatic” about the new 3-minute rule from Nielsen because of the impact it would have on the industry, especially from an advertiser standpoint. “We know people’s listening habit may not allow them to listen for five minutes. If this helps our story, I’m all for it,” said Shapiro.
Jason Barrett then referenced several talent that don’t market themselves or their programs on social media including Mike Valenti, Mike Francesa, Colin Cowherd among others. Asking if it matters that these talent don’t use social.
Shapiro said at the end of the day it’s about ratings and revenue, while following can fool executives often times when it comes to hiring. He noted that it is free advertising, free marketing, but at the end of the day is ratings and revenue. Rosen then noted how the growth of The Score’s individual show social media have been the approach for the Audacy brand. He said it’s no longer just the radio business, but the content business for everything because of so many platforms where the consumer finds content.
Catlin said he leaves it up to the talent to determine what they’d like to do as long as they’re there. It’s not about promotion, it’s about engagement with the audience. Lakin agreed and said you need to leverage talent to do the right items on social to help the brand and their show, and “not get drunk and get on Twitter.”
Barrett then discussed the big events that each of these programmers oversee, while it costs money to put them on they are profitable at the end of the day. In discussing The Ticket in Dallas, Catlin noted that “station events are the DNA of the radio station” when discussing the annual TicketStock event. He said the way to put on the event may have changed over time, but the why is not. It’s all about being in front of being in front of the most passionate fans of the radio station.
Rod Lakin putting on events are more expensive now more than ever for 94WIP, but it’s finding the right event to put on. He discussed the recent event that the station crafted to honor former Philadelphia Eagle Brandon Graham, and said it was preemptive creative thinking that led to a flawless execution of the event.
Barrett wrapped the panel discussing AI and how to properly use it using an example of crafting a rap song regarding Shedeur Sanders recent drop in the NFL Draft. He used the example of how AI can and cannot help brands moving forward. Mitch Rosen says that The Score has evolved with imaging using AI sometimes, but noted it’s not going to be robots hosting shows doing local content. He noted he’s more a “wait and see” approach when it comes to using AI.
Catlin says while he is also of the mind of utilizing it the right way, but the idea still comes from a person. He’s a big believer of being inclusive in that, and stations should be open to AI starting with human ideas. Lakin noted that AI will help the most with video streaming providing a SportsCenter type feel to local radio for the YouTube audience. Shapiro noted that if you’re a voiceover talent, you should be worried about AI. He said it does have to continue to start with the human on the initial idea.
9:50-10:25 = TechSurvey 2025: The Sports Radio Edition
- Fred Jacobs, Jacobs Media
Fred Jacobs opened the panel sharing a scene from the movie Moneyball and how the Oakland Athletics used new data to cut through and build a winner. He said the beauty of Moneyball was to use our wisdom of the industry and think about it in a different way to grow and win. Jacobs said that “you guys need more data than you have.”
Jacobs then went into his presentation which included over 500 radio stations, including 23 sports radio stations with a sample of 1,472 sports radio listeners with the survey done between January 8 – February 9 of 2025. He said the methodology of the survey was based on the stronger listeners of the radio station, but the data about to be shown was the 20% of the 80/20 rule and didn’t represent all of radio.
Jacobs data showed that the average age of sports radio a sports radio listener surveyed was 60 years old, leans heavy male and dominated by baby boomers living in the suburbs.
His first take away was that sports radio fans are considerably more immersed in digital than the average broadcast radio listener. When asked about how those surveyed listen to their favorite radio station, people still listen mostly on AM/FM radio in the car at 39% with an additional 20% listening on radio elsewhere. Then he noted the trends of people using regular radios going down from 85% to 58% in the last 12 years where consumption is now up to 39% on digital consumption.
For sports listeners surveyed, 52% listen on broadcast radio vs 46% on digital which is an important split to note. Jacobs noted that it’s vital for stations to have their digital platforms right the first time.
His second finding is to effectively compete with the “big boys”, sports radio brands need to meet the audience where they are. With less people having a working radio in the home, it’s more important than ever to ensure your digital stream is up to date and effective for the audience.
When looking at sports radio listeners at the media pyramid from Fred Jacobs, sports radio listeners are more attracted to listen to podcasts, use a smart watch, use Bluetooth headphones and utilize online newsletter.
Third finding is mobile apps play a huge role in how sports radio fans function, and sports radio brands need a plan. Sports radio stations should always be thinking about how to allow the consumer to take the sports radio talent with them at all times. Jacobs said it is a lost opportunity for sports radio brands NOT to have their own station app as sports fans are more geared to use the mobile app the most instead of a website. Six in ten listeners have downloaded their station’s app and that has become more important over time.
Jacobs’ fourth finding is the car remains a critical listening platform, an opportunity but also a challenge for sports brands. While 53% listen to AM/FM in the car and 46% listen to other audio today, in 2018 it was 62% of people to listen to AM/FM in the car. “The puck is moving with in car listening,” said Jacobs.
For sports radio consumers, the split is 48% on AM/FM vs 52% with other audio in the car. There is a five point difference in overall broadcast over digital. The digital consumption is led by cars with in-car infotainment systems being installed, but the ugly truth is with the added infotainment systems and better technology in the car you move away from broadcast radio.
His fifth finding is regarding podcasting consumption, and sports radio listeners are listening to more podcasts than ever. Sports fan are a very dynamic audience for podcasts and consume them more than any other format of podcasts available. While consumption of podcasts is continuing to rise, viewership on platforms is also rising presenting another challenge for sports radio brands on video platforms.
The findings show 39% of sports fans time shift how they consume podcasts.
Takeaway six was of all sports radio brands competitors, SiriusXM and satellite radio is the biggest competitor for sports radio. However when asking SiriusXM listeners how much they cut back on AM/FM listening, it cuts back 23% of traditional listening on AM/FM radio.
The seventh finding of the research was the top reasons why listeners don’t listen as much to their favorite station, it’s all about personalities no longer with their favorite brands. Unfortunately, the most turnover on talent is in the format.
The last finding is “word of mouth for sports radio sucks” according to Jacobs. Only 25% of those surveyed say they have told a friend about their favorite sports radio station. It’s a characteristic of sports radio, and Jacobs noted that brands need to do a better job of getting more of their content out there for people to consume on demand and on social.
10:25-11:00 = Hitting Homeruns From The Corner Office presented by Good Karma Brands
- Keith Williams, Good Karma Brands Chicago
- Kevin Cassidy, Audacy Chicago
- Mike Thomas, Audacy Boston
- Dan Seeman, Hubbard Radio Minneapolis
- Natalie Marsh, Lotus Broadcasting Las Vegas
- Mike McVay, McVay Media
Mike McVay opened the panel asking where the financial challenges and headwinds they’re facing in current times. Marsh noted the quality of content is so key and helps navigate the challenges of relationship selling and prevents some pivoting. While budgets were being decimated, the losses were not as large as others for Lotus.
Cassidy then noted that the current state is an evolving metric for brands, as brand managers and sales managers are working together to get to a point of your operating costs. He noted Rosen being very sales savvy while being a fantastic programmer for Audacy. and said working with clients to creating something that moves the needle is more important now than just a spot schedule. He said it’s also about finding the right program for the right client for growth is vital for success.
Mike Thomas said it all comes down to relationships and brand managers working together to do whatever it takes to get the right programming for the right advertiser. He said there should be no walls between talent and sales, but also notes that market equity from talent in a market for a long time has to be an asset that is used to drive advertising dollars. “Having a talent that says it’s not about me, it’s about us is key,” said Thomas.
Keith Williams believes “that every teammate has a voice” when it comes to deciding what is best for clients to continue to come back and advertising with the brands. He notes that the partnership with ESPN Radio and Good Karma Brands has worked extremely well.
Seeman talked about his approach on selling digital with Hubbard and how the decision to move to 100% digital with their content has paid off. He said the decision has worked because of the vision and leadership of Phil Mackey, noting that the concept works but it does take a lot of education for clients to understand the approach. The content and engagement has grown over the time following the decision but SKOR North is driving the business now for his building.
Kevin Cassidy then discussed the Twitch partnership for Audacy Chicago and the engagement the audience has during programming as well as their partnership with CHSN as ways for different audiences to discover programming opening up revenue opportunities. While he said they’re not massive, but everything helps.
Mike Thomas discussed his time with 98.5 The Sports Hub before joining WEEI and how the success of the Twitch product led to some great content for the morning show embracing a feedback outlet for the talent. Ubiquity is key for everyone to be everywhere possible said Thomas.
Keith Williams says more and more people are gravitating to watching their favorite radio programs on video, and how brands can sell if they think the right way when it comes to the video presentation. He said product placement and creativity is key.
Regarding the new Nielsen 3-minute rule, Mike Thomas notes he’s seen his TSL numbers rise quite a bit but noted there are a lot of factors that work into that. In prime with men, TSL listening year over year went up 111% on WEEI in Boston. Hot AC also saw a rise within the walls of Audacy in Boston, but it is having an impact.
Seeman said the 3-minute qualifier is a good thing, even though it’s about 20-years too late, but has seen growth on some brands so far. Cassidy noted that he’s had maybe one conversation regarding the new rule, while he sees just a lot of people just rolling with it. He agreed with Seeman that the rule is far too late, but he also notes there isn’t a lot of engagement about the new rule which leads him to question the importance of it.
Natalie Marsh says Lotus hasn’t changed anything when it comes to how they sell brands with the new 3-minute rule, but from a client perspective they haven’t gotten a lot of push back on the new rule.
Williams, who doesn’t subscribe to Nielsen, said he doesn’t need ratings to sell advertising. He’s never had issues at any brands to make great client partnerships with the brands he’s been associated. He then noted the success of Hard Knocks with the Chicago Bears and ESPN Chicago doing a Hard Knocks postgame show following every episode which they attached to an advertiser with great success.
Kevin Cassidy noted the amount of ideation is amazing from account executives and talent. He said that 80-90% of the business used to come from national agency, which is now down in the 40% range. It’s all about the idea, but every client is buying digital. Some of the biggest opportunities that Audacy has had was because of a client who worked with a previous vendor. “Just do what you’re saying you’re going to do,” said Cassidy. He also noted the success of the soundstage within the Audacy building with the Chicago Cubs home opener series in Japan this year, which was great for a unique experience for clients to attach to the consumer.
Mike Thomas reminded the panel that “old ideas still work” even in current times, even if it’s as small as doing remote broadcasts. March then discussed the challenges of a market like Las Vegas, which didn’t have sports for a long time. She mentioned trying lawyer segments to discuss sports issues, and mixologist segments about great cocktails to watch sports too which drove revenue through a great partnership or two.
Seeman was asked about the importance of community involvement, which he stated he has the privilege to operate in Minnesota. He said high school sports is everything across the Hubbard brands in the state of Minnesota, saying it’s up to 20% of the revenue of some brands in some markets.
11:00-11:10 = 10-Minute Networking Break presented by ESPN Good Karma Brands
Attendees are given 10-minutes to grab a beverage and connect with others in attendance before the final two sessions prior to lunch.
11:10-11:45 = Podcasting’s BIG Picture presented by Magellan AI
- Mike Hulvey, RAB
- Cameron Hendrix, Magellan AI
- John Goforth, Hubbard Radio/Gamut Podcast Network
Mike Hulvey opened up the panel on the backstory of both Hendrix and Goforth. Hendrix shared his background as half engineer, and half sales. Goforth spoke of his background as a sales manager and helped build some podcasts networks, and have dabbled in audio for some years.
Hulvey spoke about the perception of everything is radio moving away from just the content that comes out of the transmitter. Bouncing off the concept, he asked about the revenue opportunities with podcasts.
Goforth noted he’s bullish about revenue being attached on local and local podcasts with listenership. There are just a lot more people you can sell to regionally than nationally. He notes that time shifted radio/audio is just as valid in the podcasting space as a podcaster such as Joe Rogan. He says that the single greatest revenue opportunity lies in the local and regional advertisers when it comes to time shifted audio with brands.
Hendrix bouncing off Goforth says more brand awareness advertisers are looking to more podcasts than ever before. The perception of podcasting being a smaller more niche market should start with what you define what is a podcast. When you look all in at what is a podcast and driving revenue to podcasts, you need to look how the consumer are coming to support the individual content creators in that space as well. It all counts.
Goforth says companies need to be willing to evolve referencing the success that Hubbard has seen in recent years. The success story he noted from SKOR North among others has led to better conversations with clients when you have a podcast network that has evolved because of those decisions. It’s so important for talent who do podcasts to look as themselves as a business, instead of just doing the podcast.
Hendrix referenced that talent that are fully engagement with ad reads in content score the best partners. It’s critical for advertisers to tell their story through the directly connected consumer or talent on the podcaster.
Gorforth then discussed that the goal for an advertiser who buys into a podcast is results, and sometimes results vary based on what the client wants. He said that pixel based attribution is growing as an important metric that most advertisers are keying in on.
Hulvey then asked about what measurement matters when it comes to podcasting, which Hendrix replied if the client meets the audience where they’re at is what matters. He says attribution for podcasting has helped with evolution over time because there isn’t a way to validate that a listen actually took place.
When it came to how a local broadcaster who wants to start a podcast, Goforth says his advice would be to those talent is “don’t complicate it.” This is audio, it’s :30 and :60 second audio ads from the same people who have read them before. It’s just another line on the TAPSCAN. Just keeping it simple has led to success stories especially with great shows and great talent. There’s no additional content, it’s just about how you approach the client with the story. “We do miss 100% of the swings we don’t take,” said Goforth.
Hulvey brought up a great point about length of ads in podcasts asking Hendrix what works best. The average ad load was at 8% for podcasting with wide variation in different formats of podcasts, which isn’t a huge percentage of ad time in podcasting. He said that sports podcasts are the most popular for most new brands, which is great for the ubiquity of content for the advertiser. The research that is delivered to advertisers can then be delivered within hours to track how placed ads are attributed.
Goforth still says there are some challenges for some clients who have always bought radio and now dabbled into podcasting. He believes the best way to explain it to clients is do you want part of the audience or all of the audience. Especially when it comes to time-shifted audio.
Hendrix there is still a level of concern with change, but still some power that podcasting has a digital signal and that can help broadcast. You can scale both of those channels, including radio and being fully inclusive.
Goforth says there needs to be more information provided on different types of ad styles whether it’s read by a host or not. There are also a lot of opportunities instead focused on genre targeting being available in the podcast space.
Where is the innovation in this space? Hendrix says the continued growth in different companies investing in podcasts that haven’t done so before. There is also attribution challenges but also opportunity with social media and how podcasting is delivered that are very attractive.
Goforth is more focused on innovation with radio talent locally being unique with their programs for time-shifted programming. The innovation to say that we don’t need to do what we did on the air could be it’s own podcast. “Where’s there is passion, there is innovation,” said Goforth.
11:45-12:30 = The Keynote Conversation with Burke Magnus presented by Point to Point Marketing
- Burke Magnus, ESPN
Jason Barrett began the session celebrating the New York Knicks going up 2-0 in the series against the Boston Celtics, jabbing at the Boston participants for a minute.
The discussion began with the recent management re-structuring and determining how to place all the different play by play entities on which networks to place them on. Magnus referenced a lot of the placement is done with the agreements with the leagues, but he said it’s a great joy for a programmer to place all these games on all these different networks because of the flexibility that the agreements currently allow. “It’s not easy, but it’s a great challenge that the team enjoys,” said Magnus.
Referencing broadcasting rights with the leagues, Barrett asked about how ESPN goes about making decisions on which league or teams make the most sense on whether or not to move with a league going forward.
Magnus noted the distribution dynamic with ESPN and indispensable partnerships with distributors. ESPN puts a premium on subscribers to drive those decisions and the cost of entry. Premium rights are quite large entities and prices are larger because there is more competition today. By the rising prices of the rights, you can’t buy everything unfortunately.
There’s also the brand perspective that’s important for some events, including The Masters and Wimbledon for example. That’s also key for choosing how to balance that with the bigger brands.
Magnus was then asked when it came to getting premier talent to ESPN, how to determine the value of a talent when it comes to TV versus digital production. He said the balance still skews to the television dynamic first before the digital one, but digital has come on in recent years. There is a brand relevance to the digital realm that simply does not exist in linear television to attract a younger audience.
Magnus said for him, the lightbulb came on when he began using his kids as litmus test to see what sports matter to their generation. There is an aspect to that in the digital realm that is very important right now, especially with talents like Pat McAfee. He found it interesting how some industry insiders were solely focused on the linear ratings when they totally ignored the gains on digital.
With more ESPN talent such as Stephen A. Smith, Ryan Clark, and Shannon Sharpe being allowed to do more business outside of the ESPN mothership, Magnus was asked about that change in philosophy.
Magnus noted McAfee and Sharpe had already created their platforms before ESPN, and of course the network wanted them to still be with the brand. Whereas Smith and Clark have created their platforms off of ESPN, the conversation is different. It’s not a ‘YES’ for everyone, but for some talent they want to do different things which is always discussed. Magnus knew that Stephen A. Smith would give ESPN everything they needed while building the platform he has built. It’s all about getting to the right kind of deal.
As the head of content, Magnus was asked about how he walks the line between defending the brand of ESPN versus allowing talent to be talent on their social platforms. Magnus said ESPNBet took long discussions to go forward with a betting experience where ESPN felt comfortable working with PENN to make it something for sports fans inserting and connecting the dots with wagering information on ESPN programming.
Regarding the talent side of dealing with controversy with certain talent, it can really happen with anyone according to Magnus. He added if it can be managed and if we’re doing the right thing by the company to do so, saying ESPN does want some line of pushing the envelope with compelling content.
Barrett then referenced the the sports and politics divide with talent on ESPN, what was the messaging in how talent approach that from Magnus’ perspective.
Magnus noted that it actually works to a benefit to have an ESPN talent like Stephen A. Smith doing politics as a representative of how to do it right. He then noted there was a time when some talent took actions and said things just to draw distinctions as a person versus an employee. Magnus noted sports and society intersect all the time, and ESPN will continue to cover the stories of those as news items. However a political opinion expressed by a talent outside of that lane is simply not allowed.
“Sports is supposed to be fun. It is an escape for people,” said Magnus.
With the upcoming announcement next week regarding ESPN “flagship”, what is going to be different with the new DTC product?
Magnus says there are two points on this regarding the new DTC product, which more info will be announced next week. The premise is simple, we can provide access to people to consume and purchase the linear content directly from us including all the different networks ESPN provides. ESPN+ was always thought of as a compliment to the network. This is access with the new “flagship” to do that.
He said that he wants to provide the consumer to buy ESPN in a variety of different ways, and also provide bundles with Disney+ and HULU. Access and the ESPN app environment with new features and functionalities will be the biggest changes outside of what the consumer already knows of the product.
Regarding ESPN Radio, Magnus said he’s “pretty pleased” with the lineup as it is right now. While the company remains opportunistic to make it more compelling, they are working more in the podcasting space to connect more to radio. The partnership he noted with Good Karma Brands has been fantastic. He said the company is closer than ever before to doing some different things with the podcasting wing of the audio division. When the issue of consistency rose up with ESPN Radio, Magnus says he doesn’t like tinkering when you don’t need to but in the media business generally there is a shorter fuse than needed to let things take hold.
Barrett then asked about how ESPN Radio can be a bigger player in the podcast space. Magnus said in this case with ESPN, maybe less is more. There was a shockingly high number of podcasts at first which were not up to the level of what ESPN was looking for. Magnus said ESPN had to get out from under a bunch of legacy stuff to get going in the right direction. It is a business that he feels ESPN has to be relevant in, even if it’s a small business for the company. He said there is still a lot of work to do there, but looking forward to the challenge.
Magnus was asked about how the network works with the conference on kick off times for football games. He said ESPN was not going to approach finding those times like CBS or FOX, but what works for local fanbases as much as possible. He mentioned there is a lot of flexibility had with the conferences which helps a lot with game selections.
Magnus was then asked about the NFL schedule release about games being flexed, which he wasn’t sure how the NFL will balance the new rules. He said it would be under the full control of the NFL, but ESPN said they could make suggestions.
Magnus was then asked about the college talent he has including Kirk Herbstreit, who also works for the NFL on Amazon. He says he’s done a great job in balancing the two. Same for Jay Bilas who has been working both NBA and NCAA basketball this season. He noted that we may see more of Jay Bilas on NBA broadcasts.
1:35-2:15 = Mornings in the Afternoon presented by Jim Cutler
- David Haugh, 670 The Score
- David Kaplan, ESPN 1000
- Jonathan Hood, ESPN 1000
- Steven St. John, 810 WHB
- John Mamola, Barrett Media
John Mamola commenced the afternoon slate of sessions by asking the four morning radio show hosts what renders their daypart distinctive in the overall media landscape. David Haugh, host for 670 The Score, talked about being someone who emanates from the world of newspapers alongside Mike Mulligan. As a result, he tries to think about what will be on the protoypical front page, considering which news stories will be the most important among potential topics to discuss.
Steven. St. John, who hosts on 810 WHB in Kansas City, revealed that he plans his show the night before, something he finds necessary to do in order to sleep. With the Kansas City Chiefs showcasing a dynasty over the last several years, he recognizes how the team is always in the conversation. St. John also divulged how his 40-minute commute to work functions as an advantage in being able to speak with his producer, properly coordinate highlights and topics for discussion.
David Kaplan spoke about how his show with Jonathan Hood is not as guest-driven and how his perspective towards doing a program completely changed. Mike Thomas, who used to work with them at ESPN 1000, hosted Kaplan and Hood for a meeting and questioned why the show was having a beat writer on the air. Thomas voiced that most people in the car are not happy and want to be hosting a radio program. From that moment, the duo changed how they go about viewing a show.
Hood reminded the audience that they started in the middle of a pandemic and how the program sought to make people smile. In addition, he also realized the importance of being a personality-driven program and emitting a feel of two friends discussing sports rather than hearing about the swing tackle of the Chicago Bears.
Mamola followed up by asking how the pandemic changed how they envision the show, leading Haugh to explain how the show was more guest intensive at that point than afterwards. After the pandemic, however, he felt the show did not change its approach that much at all. St. John was covering the Chiefs in the Super Bowl during the pandemic, and he found that he became a better storyteller, listener and interviewer due to the abeyance of live games.
“I’ve always leaned on comedy,” St. John said. “The biggest compliment I could ever hear from the listener is, ‘You made me laugh on the way to work today,’ or, ‘I feel like I know you, I feel like you’re a friend of mine.'”
Mamola emphasized how the program director role has evolved over time and was curious to hear the talent perspective on what they demand from those serving in the position. Hood articulated that he wants the program directors to listen and be able to give feedback so long as they do not have to engage in “chapter and verse” based on what is said. In the end though, he elucidated how it is ultimately up to them to create content.
Kaplan reminisced how Danny Zederman, current director of content for ESPN Chicago and Good Karma Brands, was the executive producer of the show when the pandemic hit and that they needed to get creative at the time. On top of that, he conveyed how he arrives prepared and is ready to go from the moment he arrives to the station.
“”Mitch [Rosen] beats us to work, and he’s there all the time and very involved, whether it’s segment to segment or day to day,” Haugh added. “There’s never a day where you think, ‘Boy, he’s out of touch’ with what your content is or the approach you take. He trusts us, and I think there’s a really good professional respect there…. I’ve never worked for anybody who has a better attention to detail.
Kaplan and Haugh previously hosted a show together, something Mamola spoke about to set up how talent goes about pivoting in the sports media ecosystem. Throughout his career, Kaplan has worked with Haugh, Hood and Tom Waddell at WGN. He emphasized how necessary it is to come prepared and ready to roll, underscoring how listeners will give shows five minutes before making a determination to continue tuning in or flip the dial. Putting him together with Hood on ESPN 1000, he surmised, was a “master stroke.”
St. John conferred that he received an opportunity to have a larger platform working with Jason Whitlock, who was a sports columnist for the Kansas City Star. For the previous 15 years, St. John had worked with Nate Bukaty, who is a rising play-by-play announcer on Apple TV+ and CBS Sports Golazo Network. In the last year-and-a-half, he has gone solo, something that has permitted him to do things that he has desired over the last decade.
“We’re very into character development, character driven,” St. John said, maintaining how the program utilizes guests, “so that’s allowed me to focus on that a little more, expand what I do, and it really has added a lot of excitement to my career.”
Haugh voiced how he would not want to say anything on the radio that he would not write while working as a columnist at the Chicago Tribune. Being trained in the newspaper space, there was an adjustment working in radio, but he has still maintained the same mindset. In addition, Haugh also appears on television with the Chicago Sports Network, and while he admits there are similarities, there is a difference as it pertains to the presentation.
Mamola talked about how talent have different approaches working with the sales staff. In the individual buildings, there are gaps and opportunity that is left unsold or not considered at all. This led Mamola to ask the panel how sales people can approach the gaps in the market with the goal of generating revenue. Hood, speaking from his experience with Good Karma Brands, elucidated that the conversation is open and that they are able to meet with the team.
“I just think all of this is communication, and so the idea that you could be able to pitch things and view things back and forth, I think that’s great,” Hood said. “I think that’s great for our company.”
Kaplan divulged that they were not allowed to speak to salespeople, nor could they approach them, while working for The Walt Disney Company. His advice for salespeople was to listen to their own radio station and was previously nonplussed about how those in the department were not listening to elements of the show or the competition. Hood subsequently programmers to do them a favor by talking to their sales staff and asking what time the morning show airs.
St. John also voiced to take the talent on the sales call, revealing that he makes himself available to go on any sales calls or follow-ups and meets with clients on a regular basis. As a talent, he is ultimately trying to convey that he understands them, and he hopes that they understand him as well.
Haugh mentioned how the Chicago Sports Network simulcasts two hours of the Mully & Haugh morning show and that there is a good working relationship. The preparation for his other shows on CHSN complements that on the radio, and it requires him to be disciplined because his television obligations do not begin into the afternoon. Repackaging things and knowing how to get it all done is essential to succeed in the endeavors as well.
Kaplan recalled a reaction video series where he gave his thoughts on the Chicago Bears trading for Khalil Mack and articulated that the morning show would be talking about it. Moreover, St. John delineated how there is no substitute for being in the community and that the listeners understand if the talent is real, genuine and authentic.
Being in morning drive, the hosts are up at night watching games and preparing for the next morning. When asked about the importance of being socially engaged with the audience, Kaplan referenced his catchphrase of, “Take that.” He averred that it started from being more aggressive on Twitter and a user speaking about his son. Going after the user, he typed out a tweet and wanted to press ‘Send,’ but his wife talked him out of it by granting him perspective about their situations. Instead, she recommended he write, “And you follow me, take that.”
Hood added the last thing he would want to do is being let go because of something he said on social media. When others may have different thoughts towards sports on social media, there is not usually an issue, but when things go left, that is when to disengage. St. John pointed out that he highlights the positive comments and uses the platforms as a tool to be constructive. Haugh divulged how there can sometimes be a point of diminishing returns regarding the medium as well.
Mamola concluded the discussion by circling back on an earlier point made towards the survival of the radio business and asked how healthy the radio business is as a whole. Haugh wished that he had a better sense of the entire business and said that if he had thought of that answer towards newspapers, he would have potentially not been able to do his job. The only thing he can do from a host standpoint, he opined, was to be the same every day, although he wishes he knew the answer since it would help him feel better about the future.
Kaplan remembered when a friend of his working on SiriusXM reached out at the last minute to secure him for an interview, and upon completing the interview, Zederman communicated and asked if he had cleared the appearance. Hood then told the audience to listen closely as he elucidated that they are thriving and radio is thriving. He spoke about, however, the importance of watching what they say since there are young and impressionable people who are thinking of the role as audio rather than radio.
“I got in the business because I love sports and talk radio,” Hood said. “I grew up on the South Side of Chicago listening to talk radio because my parents were politically inclined, and they said, ‘Hey, stop reading the back of the paper, read the front of the paper – that way if you have a conversation with someone on the bus or the train, you can have a full conversation besides Sox – 3, A’s 2.'”
Hood mentioned how the love for the business from the beginning needs to remain within professionals and that the content is ultimately being disseminated to a variety of mediums. When an industry professional is down, they need to remember that the business is doing well and that it remains alive. St. John closed it out by talking about how Kansas City sports are strong and that there is excitement to take the airwaves and talk about the teams in what can feel like a focal point of the sports world.
2:15-2:50 = The Mid-Majors presented by Westwood One
- Bruce Gilbert, Westwood One/Cumulus Media
- Danny Zederman, ESPN 1000
- Brad Carson, 92.9 ESPN
- Andy Roth, 680 The Fan
- Matt Moscona, 104.5 ESPN
Bruce Gilbert, the senior vice president of sports at Cumulus Media and Westwood One, kicked off the conversation by asking what would define success as a program director in the year. For Moscona, as a program director rather than a host, he explained that if everybody comes through the door on a daily basis fired up to be at work, it would encompass a successful day. If everyone has that mentality coming in, it could have a trickle-down effect and inform everyone that they will be successful as a whole.
Zederman articulated how Good Karma Brands measures success through fans, partners and teammates, trying to serve all of these vested parties and providing a sense of value. In addition, he articulated how core values exist beyond a piece of paper and are exhibited by the staff on a daily basis.
Gilbert loaded a slide divulging statistics surrounding the growth of the digital economy, underscoring that more than 1.5 million Americans work full time as digital creators, a 7.5-times growth since 2020. Rather than solely competing with other radio stations, Gilbert discussed how this is the true competition of what radio is facing on a daily basis. From there, he reflected on a presentation from the 2024 BSM Summit about how Moscona built his YouTube channel and compliments his radio show.
“Understanding everything in the digital age is pushing that way, so, ‘How do we serve our audience digitally on every platform?,'” Moscona said. “So a year ago, we talked about our YouTube strategy…. and in the last year, we launched our own website, so we are creating standalone written content.”
Creating strong content on every digital platform that finds a way to monetize is fundamental in today’s environment and evolving with the times while recognizing previous traditions. Roth nodded his head in agreement, reminiscing on how there was no computer in the control room when he first arrived in Buffalo in 2003. While there were employees moving into the newsroom to receive information through the wire, he built a website and emphasized to staff that they were responsible for their jobs.
“I think now, the idea of being a digital creator is what we’ve been building up for for the past 20 years,” Roth said. “It’s now time for the next generation of people to take two jobs and turn them into one.”
Zederman spoke about creating the best possible content and being where fans want to consume it. Furthermore, he discussed how every piece of content they create is intended to exist on multiple platforms. Regardless of what the content is, it is important to recognize that the platform is where they want to be.
Moscona used to have a rule that he would prep two hours for every one hour of his radio show, but the days have become more busy since assuming the program director role. The team at ESPN 104.5 Baton Rouge has about 30 people, a significant investment that comes with a challenge to make sure it is being capitalized properly. The station airs 11 hours of local content per day and has tailored strategies for each vertical as well, resulting in Gilbert asking about the calculus behind content decisions.
Roth referenced how Moscona talking about saving a topic does not exist anymore because of the immediacy associated with the medium. The other part of is that they are supposed to get ratings, but as they saw this morning at the BSM Summit, they used to believe that they do not want to call out the umpire. Yet the case has now changed with digital listening not being recorded, things that ultimately benefit the station both from a monetary and listening perspective.
“I just wonder when you talk about a headphone calibration, when you talk about matters in areas, that’s not enough, and the idea of being a forerunner of what we should be doing in this business and what you’re doing, we shouldn’t have to worry about another scorecard,” Roth said. “We should look at it, ‘Are we getting results for our clients? Are we getting good listenership and feedback from what we want?'”
Roth mentioned how he is involved in revenue generation every day and that it is great that the sales staff would come to talent to divulge their true thoughts on certain situations. Becoming embedded into the conversation, they become a fan, something that helps them sell the radio station even more.
Bruce Gilbert wrapped the panel asking what the part of your job that’s the most fun. Brad Carson noted his is its great when people from all over your market come together at events as a unifier. Andy Roth agreed that the best part is that the sports radio station is a unifier around the games. Danny Zederman says this is his dream job working for ESPN Chicago, but the best part is being around the best and most energetic people around creating content every day. Matt Moscona says he enjoys trolling Alabama fans, but also the fun part is supporting your passionate talent.
2:50-3:25 = Meeting the Moment in Women’s Sports presented by ESPN Radio
- Justin Craig, ESPN Radio
- Leila Rahimi, 670 The Score
- Courtney Cronin, ESPN
- Jen Lada, ESPN/ESPN Milwaukee
- Annie Agar, Chicago Sports Network
Justin Craig asked the four women on the panel individually what they each thought of the names on this panel. Jen Lada opened up referencing the group as warriors, while Courtney Cronin referenced authenticity in how they approach every aspect of the business they are involved in. Cronin says the platforms demand you to portray the person who you are.
Leila Rahimi mentioned the keyword of being disruptive no matter what, while attempting to be yourself. Annie Agar asked how Jen Lada deals with being a Chicago Bears fan covering the Green Bay Packers, which referenced the importance of no Aaron Rodgers in Green Bay anymore. Agar noted how honored she was to be a part of a panel with so much talent.
Lada discussed her work style on radio compared to College Gameday, while referencing days of the past about cutting through the roadblocks in her career path. Courtney Cronin discussed how she wears a lot of different hats covering the Bears for ESPN Chicago, while also dabbling into Around The Horn on television and national radio for ESPN Radio. She noted the hardest thing is straddling different lines for different roles, and how she’s not so “cookie cutter” with all the different versions of herself she represents.
Leila discussed how she has adjusted to the role of driving the content as the lead host on her new show on 670 The Score and how she appreciates the coaching from Jeff Catlin, and Mitch Rosen. Annie Agar then discussed her relationship with NFL players and how her approach to covering the game through comedy led to fans coming together even through the tough times. Agar says the best feedback she gets are the immediate emojis after content is posted.
Agar said that you need to understand that not everyone is going to like you. Lada says she’s gotten to a point in her career if people care about her or not. She knows she’s great at her job, her teammates and her inner circle, but now she doesn’t care about the negativity from strangers. “I’m 44 years old, and at some point you ask yourself why do I care about what someone I don’t know cares about me,” said Lada.
Courtney Cronin agreed with Lada then saying there are always moments when you doubt yourself, but it’s not worrying about trolls online instead more the people who open doors for further opportunities. She notes that women have more difficulties breaking through, causing impostor syndrome.
Jen Lada was asked about if the industry is making inroads on more acceptance of women, and she said in some cases yes but there is still more room for growth. Women are needed in more leadership roles, but also seeing the value in experienced and opinionated women in the industry is also lacking. It matters to be not only seen, but also heard. The recognition that institutional knowledge is vital should be used more appropriately.
Cronin believes there are more women in television in non-host roles, including play-by-play but there needs to be more women on sports radio in premier roles in big day parts. Also in journalism needs more improvement, along with full time five day a week hosts with more representation. Lada jumped in saying that women are demanding more women representation in sports media because they’re is more demand for sports content.
Rahimi insists on discussing women’s sports because there is a demand for it, while Agar says social media has completely changed the game in how fans consume sports by putting their follow (or trust) into certain personalities online.
Noting the interest in women’s sports nationwide, Cronin said that there is no way to truly know how to talk about women’s sports because the country is geared to talk about men only. She believes there is no reason to talk about women’s sports as it relates to men’s sports. Cronin says there is a need to educate audiences on how to talk about women’s sports straying away from the drama of the sport and more about the competition on the field of play.
Jen Lada says that story telling is key to getting people interested into more women’s sports. She noted that ESPN is doing a better job of telling more stories with more women athletes than ever before. Cronin agreed but she noted that she doesn’t know if women’s sports will ever reach the level of interest and passion as men’s sports.
Rahimi kept it simple saying that people just want to know who to root for, and for radio shows to get more women guests on the stations to get more interest. Agar says she is inclusive with both women and men’s sports in the focus of comedy. Lada said that could work in some cases, but you can’t force people to pay more attention, you need to convince them why.
3:35-3:45 = 25K Audience Development Campaign Giveaway courtesy of Point to Point Marketing
- Tim Bronsil, Point to Point Marketing
Tim Bronsil thanked those in attendance for their time arriving to the stage. Bronsil referenced last year’s winner of the audience development giveaway which was Brad Carson with ESPN 92.9 in Memphis.
This year’s winner is David Locke of Locked On Podcast Network of a $25,000 audience development campaign giveaway.
3:45-4:20 = The Barstool Effect
- Ben Mintz, Barstool Sports
- Eddie, Barstool Sports
Jason Barrett asked about sports radio influence and it’s effect on both Eddie and Mintz. Eddie noted that his education background at SIU in Carbondale which led to being turned down by 670 The Score for a position, but led to an opportunity at Barstool Sports as an intern and worked his way up. Mintz talked about his background working in radio in Louisiana and how that led to his days with Barstool following a career in poker.
When referencing the COVID pandemic, Mintz was hired by ESPN Baton Rouge and worked for them, but Barstool Sports came calling when he was seen doing authentic video that caught the eye of Dave Portnoy. A follow led to a DM that led to a job at Barstool Sports. He referenced that was the best decision he ever made.
Barrett asked about “The Truman Show” aspect of living Barstool where it’s all about content from anywhere. Eddie said there is no typical day to day as there is a blank canvas every day, but it leads to taking chances that could pay off. The Barstool model is “putting up a bunch of shots, and see what hits” says Eddie.
Mintz referenced the Barstool model of no fear of failure, while Eddie mentioned that the Barstool model is very Howard Stern where everything is content.
When choosing where to go with content first, Eddie says that Barstool staff rely on the social team says about the algorithm is saying that day. Right now, there is a big focus on TikTok where X and Instagram has always been a bigger destination. Mintzy added he needs to get better with TikTok, but there is still a feeling of being asked to do anything at anytime which is challenging but fun at the same time.
Eddie says his bread and butter is audio content, but if you’re constantly putting out videos it’s not going to click. Mintz was happy to see that short-form video plays best in the social space because it’s no secret that people’s attention spans are so small.
Barstool Sports talent are constantly walking the line since everything is shot for content, but Mintzy said when he got cut from Barstool Sports he was stunned about the reach of that story. He remembered how calm he was through that moment, but knew being tied to Dave Portnoy would work out for him. Eddie referenced his moment with Dan Bernstein saying he did nothing wrong, and after telling his side of the story it was over for him.
The big Barstool Sports events that the company puts on is as simple as just having an idea and going with it. Once you see what sticks, you need to maximize it and strike while the iron is hot. Mintzy noted because Barstool Sports is such a tight knit group, it’s easy to get behind promoting events for the company because everything is so unified. Barrett asked about what if talent don’t get behind events, which Mintzy referenced that the ‘stoolies’ follow everything we do.
Eddie discussing his relationship working with Dave Portnoy is great, he loves him and his honesty in everything is appreciated. While everyone knows Dave Portnoy the talent, the boss Dave Portnoy is very supportive and if it’s not hitting he’ll shoot you straight. Mitzy agreed that honesty is so key.
Eddie recalling an on air spat with Portnoy on an episode of a podcast where he was calling his boss all sorts of profane words, said that’s content and we know it for what it is. Mintzy notes that Portnoy gets bored with everyone so complimentary of him on screen and off.
Barrett wrapped up the panel asking what’s the biggest misconception of Barstool Sports, where Mintzy said that during the pandemic what Barstool Sports did giving back to so many small businesses changed that perception. Eddie says putting Barstool Sports in any sort of box, if you really did the research people would see what the company is truly all about.
As for what determines success for the Barstool Sports brand, Eddie says listens and downloads first before you get into the sales cycle. Mintzy added views on short form videos is key, but really not to overthink it’s all about if you’re relevant or not. The notion of if you’re crushing the hits is also key for success.
When asked about the the watch parties success stories from the brand, it’s all about big teams with big time matchups and capturing being in the moment.
When asked how Barstool balances being a nontraditional outlet using traditional journalistic skills, Eddie noted that they are in the reaction business not the breaking news business.
When asked about how to determine internally which stories to react to or not, it comes down to knowing who to trust for the content first before reacting. The hardest part for both Eddie and Mintzy is knowing you’re always having to be on all the time much like “The Truman Show.”
4:20-4:55 = The New Age of Digital presented by Steve Stone Voiceovers
- Phil Mackey, SKOR North
- Courtney Hirsch, Jomboy Media
- Bron Heussenstamm, Bleav
- David Locke, Locked On Podcast Network
Phil Mackey opened up the discussion how YouTube has changed the game with podcasting. Courtney Hirsch talked about how Jomboy Media has started and lived on YouTube the entire length of the company. She notes that YouTube allows the company is do all sorts of short form entertainment as well for sponsorship. David Locke, a former programmer, says the most loyal listeners for Locked On begin with audio but YouTube has led to the most discovery as of late. Bron Heussenstamm of BLEAV notes that YouTube revenue is nice, but it’s more opportunistic to look at the podcast sponsor for the company. Heussenstamm notes that there will be another invention or social platform that will come along, so today’s conversation surely will change.
When discussing the biggest revenue epiphanies that they’ve all gone through, Locke noted that the connection that local teams and local hosts have with a local audience is still paramount and it carries over to the podcast space too. Hirsch says it’s all about developing more types of content that can be monetized by sponsorships by building the bridge to branch the company to other audiences.
Hirsch says that 80% of sponsorship packages for Jomboy media all look the same, while there is some other client driven ideation that leads to new ventures for the company. Locke proposed a question about how some clients may buy certain wings of a digital company such as audio, video or digital for which Hirsch said in most companies have moved away for an all in type of buy as of recent.
Locke was asked about spot to content ratio for podcasting on the platform, he says as long as you’re doing it where it’s interesting. While there is no book on the right way and wrong way to look at it, Locke said it’s more about the personality bringing the messaging than ever before. Hirsch noted that Jomboy runs four spots per hour and by keeping the spots low it allows some more interactive listening by the consumer. Heussenstamm said it’s all dependent on the host and how they execute the ad which matters more than ever.
When it comes to the debate on IP versus partnerships, Jomboy Media built their own content in the Warehouse Games to be their future driver of content and revenue and partnering with established creators are driving viewership and subscriptions making backyard sports competitions television events. Hirsch says the title sponsorship of FanDuel led to a massive revenue generation from the massive viewership of the Warehouse Games.
Heussenstamm believes it’s a duel approach when you have to compensate talent to create content that can make advertisers. It’s all about the host doing what they want to do, and doing what’s best for the host. He would prefer the IP that simply just plugs into a brand. When it comes to IP, David Locke says there’s no discussion, it is owned by Locked On.
When it comes to the future, Locke says AI will be replicating content of the creator for everywhere the content plays for the consumer. It will be up to the consumer if they want to be accepting of AI. Heussenstamm notes that the consolidation of the industry is leading to more partnerships between content partners and more personalization through AI bots. Hirsch believes that YouTube will continue to get bigger, and lead to more discovery.
When it comes to what everyone is looking outside the box, Heussenstamm notes that he’s a big fan of Men in Blazers and are consistently meeting their audience and growing with the sport of soccer. Locke noted Jomboy social game is very well done, but is interested in how companies are using time-lapsed content differently.
David Locke noted that a large part of the Locked On audience come from cold weather cities, but the podcast audience is flattening a bit meaning local is more effective. Heussenstamm says when it comes to a national show, the approach is different. With local business models in order to work you have to have it at scale for a business model. The key is waiting to for success is key too with local.
Jomboy Media shifted away from the team centric shows in podcasting only if it’s creator led and passionate but won’t force a local strategy at all. Heussenstamm notes that it’s vital to understand that local guys cannot do national.
Hirsch notes she recruits talent who are deep in substance and light in tone for Jomboy Media. Locke wants passion and intelligence over everything, where Heussenstamm wants people who are stoked to do content at all times.
And that’s a wrap for Day 1. Come back tomorrow to learn what’s uncovered during day 2 of the Summit.
